Amatonormativity harming everyone

[roboticanary]

One thing that comes up here quite a lot is the idea that the putting of romance on a pedestal, or the primacy of romantic relationships, that sort of thing, is bad for aros.

I was wondering though if people have stories about how this sort fo thing has accepted anyone else. So people who aren't arospec being harmed by these ideas.

Three come to mind for me. The first is my grandad moving in with his neighbour after my nan died. From my viewpoint it was a really good idea, they keep each other company and they can rent her house out which is basically a second pension. But the reaction from some of my family was not great. I remember at first my uncle flat out said that if he died she would have to 'get out quick' as she had no place there. Even with till death do us part he saw it as disrespectful to my nan.

The other example which comes up is visitation rights at hospital which, at least where I am, mke it difficult for people outside of family to see loved ones in hospital. My mum had an hour of arguing to see an old friend who had been in for a few days after passing out in her hallway.

The last one is that I know a few lads who forced themselves to ask people out in schoool because they didn't want to be seen as loners even though they really weren't ready for anything of the commitment they asked for. A couple of messy breakups and a few rather blunt rejections later and no-one was better off.

[Nix]

I read a post on tumblr about how ‘forever’ seems to be the only acceptable definition of succes.
So in the case of romance, if you date a couple of people and it doesn’t work out, you have a ‘failed’ lovelife. If your marriage doesn’t work out because you drifted apart, you have a ‘failed’ marriage.

A lot of people don’t seem to be able to focus on the idea that maybe something used to be good, and has now ended, but that thing was still good. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Nix
Wording

[alto]

2 hours ago, Nix said:

I read a post on tumblr about how ‘forever’ seems to be the only acceptable definition of succes.
So in the case of romance, if you date a couple of people and it doesn’t work out, you have a ‘failed’ lovelife. If your marriage doesn’t work out because you drifted apart, you have a ‘failed’ marriage.

A lot of people don’t seem to be able to focus on the idea that maybe something used to be good, and has now ended, but that thing was still good. 

I don't get that either.  I mean, all relationships end eventually.  So by that standard everyone is a failure.

[Neon]

My friend refused to leave a toxic relationship because then she wouldn't be dating anyone, and she thought that was worse. (They did break up eventually)

[MulticulturalFarmer]

37 minutes ago, alto said:

I don't get that either.  I mean, all relationships end eventually.  So by that standard everyone is a failure.

I guess continuing on the topic of this thread, I think that there's good and bad aspects of all relationships, and I think that seeing it in a black and white way isn't healthy at all.

[alto]

2 hours ago, MulticulturalFarmer said:

I guess continuing on the topic of this thread, I think that there's good and bad aspects of all relationships, and I think that seeing it in a black and white way isn't healthy at all.

You're right.  Especially how people go "oh and so-and-so is the love of my life" and then promptly start hating them as soon as they break up.  Like, where did that love go?  Was it even real to begin with?

[MulticulturalFarmer]

4 hours ago, alto said:

You're right.  Especially how people go "oh and so-and-so is the love of my life" and then promptly start hating them as soon as they break up.  Like, where did that love go?  Was it even real to begin with?

I am not sure either. I have heard of psychologists saying that that behavior isn't normal even for alloromantic people, but the romance movies sure have shown a bad example of what a good/healthy relationship looks like.

[Holmbo]

9 hours ago, alto said:

I don't get that either.  I mean, all relationships end eventually.  So by that standard everyone is a failure.

I used to wonder about this as a teen. In my country it would be pretty weird to stay with a partner from your teens. Which means teenage couples are expected to break up. So the best end you could hope for is an amicable separation. But that's never talked about.

[jjaee_jaee]

for me i've found it to be very harmful to how people treat relationships that aren't romantic, i've discussed this topic beforehand in another section of this forum.

if you're in a romantic relationship you are expected to put that singular (or several if poly) person above everyone else, you have to make time for them and are expected to go to the ends of the earth for them, overall the relationship seems to be like walking on eggshells. this person is made to be your whole world, and nothing is allowed to be higher up than them otherwise its viewed as strange and maybe disloyalty. it makes no sense to me! it's so harmful, because to me it basically seems like isolating yourself from your other relationships because a romantic relationship must always be the top priority. 

it baffles me honestly. 

[Alaska Native Manitou]

And there are abusers who take advantage of "love trumps everything" culture to isolate & make their partner dependant.

[ilse]

On 5/1/2022 at 1:28 PM, Neon said:

My friend refused to leave a toxic relationship because then she wouldn't be dating anyone, and she thought that was worse.

If I had a dime for every time I heard of a similar case I'd have at the very least 10 dimes, goes to show just how normalized this type of ideology is 🤦‍♀️

[nonmerci]

I think that people are too quick to forgive and accept ça or toxic behavior because the person who did that "love them". That's not only a romantic thing, but it is more talked about there. Romantic love is supposed to be so amazing that it justifies everything. One sad example is toxic relationships...

I remember when I was discussing a ship in a tv show (Rumbelle for Once Upon a Time if you know this show) : for me their relationship was really toxic and they should have get a divorce. But someone argue about how she's been there with her husband and people should not be so quick to break up when things can still be "healed" and that the spark of love is still there... Seriously who cares if the spark of love is there when a man abused you like this !

In fact I've seen a lot of people justify people who are in the wrong because "they are in love" (things like harrassment or stalking). It was about fiction, but I'm sure that people who justify it in fiction are willing to justify it in real life as well. And that's say a lot about the messed up view that amatonormativity gives them...

[jjaee_jaee]

6 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I think that people are too quick to forgive and accept ça or toxic behavior because the person who did that "love them". That's not only a romantic thing, but it is more talked about there. Romantic love is supposed to be so amazing that it justifies everything. One sad example is toxic relationships...

I remember when I was discussing a ship in a tv show (Rumbelle for Once Upon a Time if you know this show) : for me their relationship was really toxic and they should have get a divorce. But someone argue about how she's been there with her husband and people should not be so quick to break up when things can still be "healed" and that the spark of love is still there... Seriously who cares if the spark of love is there when a man abused you like this !

In fact I've seen a lot of people justify people who are in the wrong because "they are in love" (things like harrassment or stalking). It was about fiction, but I'm sure that people who justify it in fiction are willing to justify it in real life as well. And that's say a lot about the messed up view that amatonormativity gives them...

yeah, i've also seen this loads!

love is something precious to allos, and just like you wouldnt let your precious friend jump into a volcano, you should keep your love under supervision and make sure you know when love gets a bit too close to this metaphorical volcano edge, which would make it abusive. with the stalking and harassment, that's not love, it's unhealthy, worrying and obsessive and should not be disguised as 'love'.

[roboticanary]

14 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I think that people are too quick to forgive and accept ça or toxic behavior because the person who did that "love them"

I find it interesting that a lot of people seem to do this for themselves as well. i.e. if you are a 'good person' that allows a bit of wiggle room on actually being a good person. 

It seems in general we are supposed to assume that because this person is good I am supposed to ignore actual things they do to me, even if I have no way of verifying that they have this inner love.

[MulticulturalFarmer]

15 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I think that people are too quick to forgive and accept ça or toxic behavior because the person who did that "love them". That's not only a romantic thing, but it is more talked about there. Romantic love is supposed to be so amazing that it justifies everything. One sad example is toxic relationships...

I remember when I was discussing a ship in a tv show (Rumbelle for Once Upon a Time if you know this show) : for me their relationship was really toxic and they should have get a divorce. But someone argue about how she's been there with her husband and people should not be so quick to break up when things can still be "healed" and that the spark of love is still there... Seriously who cares if the spark of love is there when a man abused you like this !

In fact I've seen a lot of people justify people who are in the wrong because "they are in love" (things like harrassment or stalking). It was about fiction, but I'm sure that people who justify it in fiction are willing to justify it in real life as well. And that's say a lot about the messed up view that amatonormativity gives them...

I think worldwide, we need to admit that romance is a quirky and abnormal feature of being human, despite how "normal" and inherent it seems to be (though perhaps to an extent it is a construct) and try to control this urge (or let it pass) and then try to engage in a relationship with someone, whether friendly, romantic, etc. 

[merlindfluorite]

Romantic love, most forms of love, allow for toxicity around ideas of ownership, entitlement, toxicity & more. Any time you can say 'oh but I'm sorry I love you' there will be someone who uses it to twist it. In my experience it gets used a lot as a get out of gaol free card.

Anything to do with finances and power of attorney, marriage legally trumps pretty much any other paperwork you have. So if you're not married, people will see you as more risky, esp when it comes to things like mortgages.

On 5/3/2022 at 3:50 AM, nonmerci said:

I remember when I was discussing a ship in a tv show (Rumbelle for Once Upon a Time if you know this show) : for me their relationship was really toxic and they should have get a divorce. But someone argue about how she's been there with her husband and people should not be so quick to break up when things can still be "healed" and that the spark of love is still there... Seriously who cares if the spark of love is there when a man abused you like this !

That's really fascinating because I thought that this was one of the most interesting ships on the show in the early seasons (I don't know how they ended up) simply because it was so abusive (for fictional entertainment purposes only of course). I was so hooked on the idea of 'what happens when you fall in love with someone with a very specific moral difference?'

[nonmerci]

14 hours ago, merlindfluorite said:

That's really fascinating because I thought that this was one of the most interesting ships on the show in the early seasons (I don't know how they ended up) simply because it was so abusive (for fictional entertainment purposes only of course). I was so hooked on the idea of 'what happens when you fall in love with someone with a very specific moral difference?'

I liked the ship in the early seasons, but then it became repetitive. It was the same plotline each season : Rumple saying he will change for Belle but lying and manipulating, so Belle wants to live but he says that he will change.

But yeah the idea was interesting. I just didn't like how they try to selle this story of a woman trying to leave and a man constantly denying her right to leave like "the most romantic story" (they really say that in a trailer).

[merlindfluorite]

On 5/5/2022 at 1:03 PM, nonmerci said:

I liked the ship in the early seasons, but then it became repetitive. It was the same plotline each season : Rumple saying he will change for Belle but lying and manipulating, so Belle wants to live but he says that he will change.

But yeah the idea was interesting. I just didn't like how they try to selle this story of a woman trying to leave and a man constantly denying her right to leave like "the most romantic story" (they really say that in a trailer).

That's definitely an issue for me - when they build a romance story but the show goes on for too long so they break up then get back together then break up again. It's just, if you can't make an established relationship interesting then why even bother continuing it?

I also find the idea disturbing that the ultimate romance is something so awful for everybody involved but they can't seem to let go. That's a mental health crisis waiting to happen.

[dewy]

Many have had friends neglect their friendship in favor of a romantic relationship.

And I may just be aro but I feel like a lot of unhealthy thoughts and behaviors (i.e obsession, possesiveness...) are excused or normalized because of romantic attraction. I also know some people will get quite upset having confessions be rejected, and I wonder if part of that is romance being seen as something you need.

[Lovebird]

I think disabled people are the biggest victims of amatonormitvity, though it may not sound like it - it heavily implies only those who are the best mentally and physically possible should be allowed to do thing an average person should, many cannot either cannot be in romantic relationships or even get married because either society tells them not to, or they'll lose their pensions or benefits if doing so. 

As a disabled arospec myself, I've been given more grief over me being in a romantic relationship than I have being greyro, that's how bad it is. 

 

[arotr]

Not as serious as some of the things others have suggested, but the emphasis on romantic relationships leads to many placing all their eggs in one basket. If your romantic partner is supposed to be the only real sense of solid support in your life, then what do you do when you lose them? Are friendships and other emotionally deep connections (like alterous connections, if I understand the term correctly) not permitted to have great importance?

[GoodbyeRepublicServices]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:56 PM, Lovebird said:

I think disabled people are the biggest victims of amatonormitvity, though it may not sound like it - it heavily implies only those who are the best mentally and physically possible should be allowed to do thing an average person should, many cannot either cannot be in romantic relationships or even get married because either society tells them not to, or they'll lose their pensions or benefits if doing so. 

As a disabled arospec myself, I've been given more grief over me being in a romantic relationship than I have being greyro, that's how bad it is. 

I don't understand why disabled folks would lose their possessions if they entered romantic relationships. Are you able to expand further on that?

Also, are people giving you a hard time because you are in a romantic relationship, or because they want you to be in one?

[nonmerci]

2 hours ago, RepublicServicesVolunteer said:

I don't understand why disabled folks would lose their possessions if they entered romantic relationships. Are you able to expand further on that?

I don't know if this is what @Lovebirdwas thinking about, but for example, in France, a person can't work because of their disability, they touches money from the government, but if they get married, depending on the spouse's money, the government stop giving the money due to the disabled person, because the payement is now linked to how much money the couple gains together : this is the idea that a married couple have to share everything, but that means that now the disabled person is dependant on the spouse's money. And that's really weird because the couple can live together forever, as long as they are not married, the disabled allowance is still given. It is the marriage that changes everything.

[roboticanary]

4 hours ago, nonmerci said:

in France, a person can't work because of their disability, they touches money from the government, but if they get married, depending on the spouse's money, the government stop giving the money due to the disabled person, because the payement is now linked to how much money the couple gains together : this is the idea that a married couple have to share everything, but that means that now the disabled person is dependant on the spouse's money.

This was what I was thinking as well, similar thing happens in the UK.

[EliseFish]

I hang out with boys a lot (I'm a girl), and people automatically assume I like them. 

I have this one friend who's into classical music like me, and we would often hum tunes and have eachother guess what it is. When we forget the name of a piece, we also hum it out and see if the other person knows it. We're also in the same orchestra, so if one of us hums a tune of the piece we're working on, the other will join in. However, this is all purely platonic, a friendship that is built on music. (And I may have a certain amount a platonic attraction directed towards him, but certainly not romantic). 

A week ago, when I was hanging out with some of my other friends, I asked them who they saw me with. I was expecting no one, because I'm don't really display signs of attraction to anyone. So imagine my surprise when they said it was the boy I mentioned above. 

So, this is just soceity's assumption that as long as a person are close friends with another person of an opposite gender, they are in love. They are completely ignoring the fact that platonic relationships between two different genders can exist. Maybe it's a side effect of romance being proritised above all, but I'm not really sure. 

Whatever it is, it's really annoying, and it actually hurts people. One of my other friend (also male) stopped talking with me as much after he heard that people were "shipping" me and him together, and it made me really sad. Which is also why I hate shipping real people. In addition, sometimes when I talk to boys, people sorta stalk me to here what we're talking about. I've once found a person hiding beind a potted plant while talking to one of my male friends. It's very annoying, and it's an invasion of privacy. I'm going to just put it out there, people who ship real people who are not comfirmed to be in a relationship yet, are just destroying other people's  lives with not regrads for their feelings, just for a bit of drama in their lives. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.