I feel like there should be words for sexual preferense disconected from gender

[Holmbo]

Like if you don't know someones gender and want to say they are sexually attracted towards, say, men. Are there any alternative terms like that?

[Vhenan]

I've found these

Androsexual/Androphilic: attracted to males, men, and/or masculinity

Gynesexual/Gynephilic: attracted to females, women, and/or femininity

Skoliosexual: attracted to genderqueer and transsexual people and expressions (people who aren’t identified as cisgender)

[El011]

I just say attracted to men. A lot of other terms bother me because of how they conflate gender identity and expression and because of how they can be used to fetishize trans people. I'd say the only exception to that rule is when nonbinary people use them.

[hermi1e]

also

toric = enby who exclusively likes men

trixic = nb who exclusively likes women

 

also, if ur in a situation where u don't know someones gender, u could ask their pronouns. Also, it can be sufficient to say "likes men" or "likes women"

Edited October 21, 2020 by hermi1e

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vhenan said:

Skoliosexual: attracted to genderqueer and transsexual people and expressions (people who aren’t identified as cisgender)

Careful with that. Many trans and/or non binary peoples don't like it, as it often slip into fetishism. And it's better to use "transgender" than "transexual" for the whole community  (even if some trans peoples use it, which is fine). Something about the etymology too? 

There is also the matter of separating trans men and women from cis men and women with their gender whish is...not great. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Guest

[Vhenan]

3 hours ago, Leton. said:

Careful with that. Many trans and/or non binary peoples don't like it, as it often slip into fetishism. And it's better to use "transgender" than "transexual" for the whole community  (even if some trans peoples use it, which is fine). Something about the etymology too?

Yeah. I saw that, but I just copied it from the site. My bad.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Vhenan said:

Yeah. I saw that, but I just copied it from the site. My bad.

It's fine! Just something to keep in mind.

[Skylord]

On 10/21/2020 at 10:49 AM, Vhenan said:

Skoliosexual: attracted to genderqueer and transsexual people and expressions (people who aren’t identified as cisgender)

 

On 10/21/2020 at 12:19 PM, Leton. said:

Careful with that. Many trans and/or non binary peoples don't like it, as it often slip into fetishism. And it's better to use "transgender" than "transexual" for the whole community  (even if some trans peoples use it, which is fine). Something about the etymology too? 

There is also the matter of separating trans men and women from cis men and women with their gender whish is...not great. 

I always thought it was just attraction to people with non-binary identities. 

[El011]

On 10/31/2020 at 4:00 PM, Skylord said:

 

I always thought it was just attraction to people with non-binary identities. 

how would that work, though? nonbinary means a thousand different things to a thousand different people and we all look and present differently. like three other people might use the same pronouns and dress the same way as me, and one might identify as a gender nonconforming woman, one might identify as a gender nonconforming man, and one might identify as a different kind of nonbinary than I do. also, another nonbinary person might identify exactly like I do, but look completely different, present completely differently, have different goals for their transition, use different pronouns.

i feel like saying you're attracted to nonbinary people the same way you're attracted to women or men doesn't really work, partially because it implies we're a single specific gender with shared experiences and ways of signaling our identities, which is untrue and invalidating and partially because anyone who feels attraction can be attracted to nonbinary people. there are nonbinary people dating lesbians or gay men or straight people, or who identify as lesbian or gay or straight themselves.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Finn

[Alaska Native Manitou]

After realizing I am neither she nor he, I became confused about the words straight & gay.  If I had ever fallen for someone, those words wouldn't describe me.  It's the same for those times when someone seemed interested in me.  It just seems so pointless to use a word to describe your feelings for others that's based on who you are more than who they are.

[Lokiana]

On 11/7/2020 at 12:16 PM, Finn said:

which is untrue and invalidating and partially because anyone who feels attraction can be attracted to nonbinary people

um. no? 

i have met very few "strictly" straight or gay people who are attracted to nonbinary people. it's certainly possible, but many of my friends simply are not attracted to people outside of their preferred people(whether that be men or women).

On 11/7/2020 at 12:16 PM, Finn said:

nonbinary means a thousand different things to a thousand different people and we all look and present differently. like three other people might use the same pronouns and dress the same way as me, and one might identify as a gender nonconforming woman, one might identify as a gender nonconforming man, and one might identify as a different kind of nonbinary than I do. also, another nonbinary person might identify exactly like I do, but look completely different, present completely differently, have different goals for their transition, use different pronouns.

is there not a varying, widespread definition of womanhood or manhood, with different "kinds"?

Like, I have seen a lot of nonbinary people (specifically, one of my close personal friends), identify as gay because they are attracted solely to women and nonbinary people. When I describe my identity, I say I'm bi and attracted to people of any gender (men, women, and several of my nonbinary friends who present their gender in various ways). 

It is simply not possible to acknowledge every nonbinary gender when I talk about my attraction to people but it is also incorrect to assume I am only attracted to men and women. Saying I'm attracted to nonbinary people is the best grouping that I have found that covers all of my people - just like I could specifically say I am attracted to a specific type of man, I can tell you what it is (skinny medium sized height kind of nerdy, preferably can fit into my hoodies), but the best grouping is to just say men.

[El011]

20 hours ago, Lokiana said:

um. no? 

i have met very few "strictly" straight or gay people who are attracted to nonbinary people. it's certainly possible, but many of my friends simply are not attracted to people outside of their preferred people(whether that be men or women).

is there not a varying, widespread definition of womanhood or manhood, with different "kinds"?

Like, I have seen a lot of nonbinary people (specifically, one of my close personal friends), identify as gay because they are attracted solely to women and nonbinary people. When I describe my identity, I say I'm bi and attracted to people of any gender (men, women, and several of my nonbinary friends who present their gender in various ways). 

It is simply not possible to acknowledge every nonbinary gender when I talk about my attraction to people but it is also incorrect to assume I am only attracted to men and women. Saying I'm attracted to nonbinary people is the best grouping that I have found that covers all of my people - just like I could specifically say I am attracted to a specific type of man, I can tell you what it is (skinny medium sized height kind of nerdy, preferably can fit into my hoodies), but the best grouping is to just say men.

by that logic do gay, lesbian, or straight people even exist? I mean, it's impossible for ANYONE to know that they're not attracted to nonbinary people unless they're just straight up not attracted to anyone because you can't tell someone's gender just by looking, and there are plenty of nonbinary people who lean more toward one side of the binary. Nonbinary people - depending on the individual, of course - can be included in any sexuality, and saying or implying that being attracted to us is inherently a bi thing even for people who aren't attracted to both men and women is super invalidating and transphobic. There are plenty of nonbinary people who are dating gay or straight people. Also, there are nonbinary trans women or transfeminine people, and nonbinary men or transmasculine people. It's incredibly harmful to say that a lesbian or straight man would actually be bi if they were attracted to a nb transfem or a gay man or straight woman would actually be bi if they were attracted to a nb transmasc, because saying that implies that transfems are inherently not women and transmascs are inherently not men. what you're saying is very harmful to nonbinary people and invalidates and judges my identity and my experiences as a nonbinary person who has had both lesbian and straight male partners.

Also, are you cis? If so, you shouldn't be speaking over a nonbinary bi person on this at all. And if not, your opinion doesn't cancel out mine.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Finn

[Lokiana]

On 11/12/2020 at 7:10 AM, Finn said:

Also, are you cis? If so, you shouldn't be speaking over a nonbinary bi person on this at all. And if not, your opinion doesn't cancel out mine.

Until you quit invalidating my identity as a bi person who is attracted to men, and several feminine aligned non-binary people, and has discussed with them the appropriate way to identify, your opinion does not cancel out my identity. 

[HotRamen]

Hmm attraction is weird, not everyone feels attraction the same way. I’m bi but attracted to women and nonbinary people (with some exceptions.) it’s not always about looks and presentation, for me I have a shared experience usually in terms of gender, the common experience being us both being afab, or being trans, or nonbinary. To be more exact I like anyone but cis men, which I realize this is splitting cis men and trans men into different categories, However I have the least in common genderwise with cis men, but with trans men we’re both transmasc so we can relate to each other in that way. I guess technically I could also identify as polysexual because nonbinary can be many different genders, multiple genders, and the absence of one, but I just like bi better (it still fits cuz bi means attraction to 2 or more genders) , plus I like the colors on the bi flag a bit more than the polysexual flag. I’ve met some lesbians who like the same people as I do~ anyone but cis men, I’ve also met some that aren’t into nonbinary people and only women. So like labels aren’t perfect, people use them in different ways. I think it’s possible to be into nonbinary people the same way people can be into men and women, there’s so much nuance when it comes to these things. If someone likes nonbinary people and other genders and identifies as bi I think that’s valid. (Unless nonbinary people are being fetishized that’s not valid)

Edited November 13, 2020 by HotRamen

[El011]

11 hours ago, Lokiana said:

Until you quit invalidating my identity as a bi person who is attracted to men, and several feminine aligned non-binary people, and has discussed with them the appropriate way to identify, your opinion does not cancel out my identity. 

being attracted to feminine aligned nonbinary people - and feminine aligned isn't a great term btw, it's used to erase and invalidate nonbinary woman aligned people who are masc and nonbinary man aligned people who are fem - when you're a woman is still similar gender attraction because they're the same binary alignment as you. Even though it's similar and not same, for the purposes of defining bisexuality and talking about privilege i and many other nonbinary people would put that into the same category as same gender attraction, as long as you're not doing anything creepy and objectifying like only being attracted to amab transfem people because they remind you of men.

Being nonbinary doesn't erase the womanhood a woman-aligned nonbinary person still experiences and implying it does, which you very much are, is used to bar woman aligned and dual aligned nonbinary people from women's spaces that we literally depend on.

also, how would you even know that someone you're sexually attracted to is woman aligned nonbinary unless they told you? There are women aligned nonbinary people who look like anything, use any pronouns, have any kind of name or transition goals or body or gender expression. given that you apparently don't id as ace, how do you know that someone you happen to be attracted to that you just pass on the street or whatever is woman aligned nonbinary and not a binary woman? like what would you do if, hypothetically, you were attracted to someone that you had wrongly assumed was nonbinary because they, idk, used both he/him and she/her pronouns, had gotten a double mastectomy, and dressed androgynously but then you found out that this person actually identified as a binary woman, or maybe they just don't feel comfortable with gender labels?

Would your attraction to this person just shrivel up and die? It's not like anything's changed about him, and she was still woman aligned in your mind before, right? so what is it about nonbinary people that is so appealing and attractive that you can literally only find in us? if it's literally only nonbinary identity, isn't that fetishization? being attracted to a trans person just because they're trans is being a chaser, which is fetishization.

or what if you met someone who used she/her pronouns exclusively and dressed feminine? would you assume this person is a binary woman? what if you found out this person is woman aligned neutrois? even though nothing's changed about her would just being nonbinary by itself make her a viable partner to you? Nonbinary isn't a coherent category of people with shared experiences like man or woman, it's a broad, diverse category with thousands of genders and gender expressions and you can't tell anything just by looking at someone - and having had certain sexual or romantic experiences with individual nonbinary people in the past doesn't indicate anything about who you might meet in the future who could express their gender completely differently than the ones you dated.

That's why so many nonbinary people take issue with cis people saying they're "bi because I'm attracted to nonbinary people and men/nonbinary people and women." That's why so many of us are wary of cis people who say that and why so many of us feel they're fetishistic.

and before you accuse me of "invalidating" you or your partners/exes, i'm asking this as a dual-aligned nonbinary person who leans toward female and is read as a woman. There are plenty of people who present and live exactly like me but don't id as nonbinary. this is an issue that affects me far more than you.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Finn

[Lokiana]

4 hours ago, Finn said:

being attracted to feminine aligned nonbinary people - and feminine aligned isn't a great term btw

they call themselves feminine aligned. THEY ALSO disconnect themselves from womanhood  and female experience. it’s not a mutually exclusive description. 
 

4 hours ago, Finn said:

similar gender attraction

same gender attraction comes from the Christian church. please stop using it. 
 

4 hours ago, Finn said:

so what is it about nonbinary people that is so appealing and attractive that you can literally only find in us?

you could make this same argument about men or women, but to be frank, it’s that I know these people very closely and that makes the attraction stronger. 
 

that’s it.  
 

also I’ve clearly outlined that I’m attracted to a man? It’s not just y’all? 
 

4 hours ago, Finn said:

and having had certain sexual or romantic experiences with individual nonbinary people in the past doesn't indicate anything about who you might meet in the future who could express their gender completely differently than the ones you dated.

no, but out of recognition of my PAST and CURRENT partners, I know based on my lived experience that I am attracted to at least 1 man and at least 2 non-binary people. I have no idea if I’d be attracted to a non-binary person, or a woman, or a man, until I actually know who they are. 

If I suddenly feel attraction to someone who falls outside the labels I’ve given myself then I will...change the labels. My attraction isn’t gonna shrivel up and die, I’m just going to edit how I define who I am. 

I’ve quite literally redefined my identity in the past year just because....I felt attraction that I thought I didn’t feel, so I changed the terms I use. That’s allowed, last I checked. 
 

just like I’m not automatically attracted to every man in the universe I’m not going to be attracted to every non-binary person in the universe? If someone tells me they’re non-binary and I wasn’t attracted to them...I’m still not gonna be attracted to them.

 

4 hours ago, Finn said:

That's why so many of us are wary of cis people who say that and why so many of us feel they're fetishistic.

I mean fair enough? Like it’s fine to be wary? If a bi person says “I’m attracted to men and nb people” and you want to watch out for signs they’re fetishizing you, that’s completely understandable. 
 

4 hours ago, Finn said:

and before you accuse me of "invalidating" you or your partners/exes, i'm asking this as a dual-aligned nonbinary person who leans toward female and is read as a woman.

I hope I’ve answered all your questions. In summary: I identify based on who I’m attracted to now. I’m not psychic, I can’t predict the future, and I have no idea who I’ll meet or if I’ll be attracted to them. In general, I’m attracted to man, and non-binary people (2), so I’m bi. Maybe I’ll find more people I’m strongly attracted to! Who knows - bi is a flexible label, so I’ve got a lot of wiggle room there. 
 

Other than that, your argument is full of fallacies and further I can read your status updates, and I know you’re not engaging in good faith, so this is where I will end my discussion. 

[DeltaAro]

On 11/14/2020 at 6:03 AM, Finn said:

Would your attraction to this person just shrivel up and die? It's not like anything's changed about him, and she was still woman aligned in your mind before, right? so what is it about nonbinary people that is so appealing and attractive that you can literally only find in us? if it's literally only nonbinary identity, isn't that fetishization? being attracted to a trans person just because they're trans is being a chaser, which is fetishization.

Sexual (and romantic, but I skip that) orientation and gender are logically related terms. So if both are supposed to be self-identities a conflict or inconsistency will arise. We can say that the terms are vague and that would defuse the situation somewhat. But imho it doesn't really help it because then we would have to describe a situation where they definitely do not fit. Like "'heap of rice' is vague, but three grains of rice are not a 'heap of rice'". And then we would be back to the start: That someone's self-id could be simply invalid, which I guess is what's to be avoided.

I guess sexual orientation and gender seem rather to be like terms used in a mystical tradition or an unsolvable paradox like from Zeno (modern mathematics has not given us the tools to solve these paradoxes, just a ways around it. The failure is unavoidable, we cannot precisely conceptualize the "process" of a continuous line being created by stringing together zero-length points. Cauchy's ingenious definition of a limit is just the expression of the human mind wrestling with it. Ok, sorry for the off-topic).

[nonmerci]

@Finn I may say stupid things because I don't understand a lot of things about attraction and gender, but isn't what you describe true for any gender? We can't know a person's gender for sûre except if we ask. We can think someone is a woman but they are non-binary, or even think he other way around, why not.

And also, if we say that a person who felt attraction for people who happened to be women and non-binary, isn't it denying the non-binary identity to say that such a person is only attracted to women and non-binary people (even if the non-binary person are woman aligned as you said)?

 

Just asking, I don't understand a lot about all of these questions and I am very confused right now.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by nonmerci

[cyancat]

just gonna pipe in and point out that n-b isn't a gender. it's an umbrella term. n-b just refers to people outside of the binary, which can mean anything. it's like having the entire rainbow at your disposal instead of two colors. it's basically checking off the 'other' box. the thing that defines you is being the 'other.' the only thing it says about you is that you are not listed above. it doesn't say anything else about you. if you want to use it as your catch-all "i'm attracted to all these people," sure, but just understand & keep in mind that n-b people are not just diverse in the sense "oh all people are unique," but diverse in the sense that "they're a ton of genders all summed up as n-b for the purposes of naming what's other".

Edited November 16, 2020 by cyancat

[nonmerci]

Thanks for clarifying. I understand better now.

[El011]

9 hours ago, nonmerci said:

@Finn I may say stupid things because I don't understand a lot of things about attraction and gender, but isn't what you describe true for any gender? We can't know a person's gender for sûre except if we ask. We can think someone is a woman but they are non-binary, or even think he other way around, why not.

And also, if we say that a person who felt attraction for people who happened to be women and non-binary, isn't it denying the non-binary identity to say that such a person is only attracted to women and non-binary people (even if the non-binary person are woman aligned as you said)?

 

Just asking, I don't understand a lot about all of these questions and I am very confused right now.

 

It would also be denying the person's alignment with womanhood to call yourself bi just based on that, esp if the nb person is transfeminine. It's not inherently invalidating a person's nonbinary gender to be gay or straight while still being attracted to them.

[cyancat]

this sounds like a bit of the "i'm bi so it doesn't matter if you're trans or not" thing that i occasionally see, that i see a lot more people lambast aslkdf.

regardless, i do think i'm understanding what the discussion was about more, and honestly... it's kind of complicated since people should be allowed to change their orientation as they please - orientations are not fixed and they are allowed to fluctuate and change with your understanding. and since n-b people are so varied, there are some people who have a binary alignment, and there are some who don't. for those who don't have a binary alignment,,, honestly, the current orientation system has no fucking clue what to do with them. its a very binary system, and so n-b people have often been defined by whatever the heck their alignment is in discussions of if 'x' sexuality would be attracted to them. the fact that not all n-b people cannot fit within the current systems of orientations we have (or at least for the most popular types of attraction) is a given, and i do think when you attempt to funnel them into the traditional binary orientations anyway [when they have no binary alignment], you are basically hand-waving the fact that they are n-b askdjfklsd,,,

the way modern bisexuality/romanticism (is that the right term? -sexual/-sexuality :: -romantic/-romanticism, no clue) is defined today feels like a bit of a patch. me, having quite comfortably sat as 'pan' for the past century, i've definitely heard a lot about bi vs pan erasure which i am not getting into, but needless to say, one of the points is that being bi doesn't mean that you're attracted to "both genders" as its been described, but that you're attracted to at least two genders. and obviously, that exists to serve n-b people who aren't necessarily aligned with any of the binary genders. (since, a lot of sexualities n stuff have been updated/clarified/whatever to include n-b people of the same alignment.)

[as an interlude, this is honestly so hecking funny to me, as an asexual person, that i have become so invested in the sexuality mcmamebbsdjfka horse race. that's not meant to imply anything, just a momentary lapse of amusement to me.]

of course, you can immediately see the murky area with that and how it correlates to gay and straight people who might find themselves attracted to n-b people who aren't necessarily aligned? and... that's honestly not an area i can speculate about for obvious reasons, nor do i really feel comfortably implying anything since i... well, no experience, really, so it's not within my right to do so. i mean, if someone is aligned to a binary and you change your sexuality on that basis, then there's something problematic there, though i'd say that's more in the realm of 'definitional hijinks and misunderstandings' - altho, of course, that doesn't change that it can feel really invalidating, but regardless off topic thats a tangent, bisexuality is a bit of a patch to the n-b conundrum. and... it does work i guess? it can? but obviously there's something a bit... uncomfortable feeling with that being the way non-aligned n-b people are handled. like, what the heck do non-aligned people do. just sit on a throne looking pretty?? alksfdjkls,,, tho that would be very valid if they did and i would like a seat as well but aside from that, it does almost feel like being relegated to the 'other' (which may or may not be why i'm starting to have Issues with the widespread usage of n-b mmmm still contemplating that tho i'll get back if i ever come to a decision about how helpful the term n-b really is given how it seems to be consistently misunderstood to the detriment of people outside the binary). i mean, to be clear, i don't mean ill about attempts to make bi a more inclusive label, or of bi people, or the label itself. it's just that it really does feel like a patch rather than realizing that a system designed on the binary genders cannot in its nature be patched to be truly inclusive to n-b people, especially those with no binary alignment.

all of that is to say, the issue is fundamentally the system that we have in place. of course, it's a lot easier to see the faults of a system when you experience its mmmdsfthatfeelzbadz than how to fix one. but i mean, i think a start is the way we see n-b people. if it is ever broken down, it's like by your alignment or some shit? asdjgklsd i have no way of aligning my 'mmmm i'm not any of this shit but idk what i am a fairy?' gender floating in my head that likes to dance around (especially whenever i don't feel within my own body, but i still... feel something connecting? doesn't make sense, i live my life trying to not understand it). but i... dunno if its really right to say that if someone has an instance where they are attracted to a n-b person w no binary alignment, they are actually allotropo/cetero/bisexual/what have you. since um... this is just me but part of the reason i chose to call myself pan was because i was lowkey intimated by the bi community. not like. it. just, the concept of it alsdkjf. so imagine there might be a sense of community and belonging that you're kinda uprooting and that's not really fair? i suppose the thing there is that you kinda just have to tune to the fact that sexual attraction can be a bit of a slider of sorts, and maybe there will be outliers, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily wrong about their orientation? or maybe they can decide to change it. i don't know. people will have their own preferences of doing things i guess.

but then, literally all of that is also colored by the fact that i stared at the whole sexual/romantic orientation stuff and kinda noped the heck outta there. so i mean that's certainly gonna affect what i'm saying, but also i don't know if that would practically invalidate a lot of what i'm saying because if i'm speaking of my experience of things, i'm probably gonna feel othered either way, especially since for the longest hecking time i didn't feel i could be aro or ace, but i had no hecking clue what else to call myself. i've thought to death about this subject because i was a n-b person horribly and utterly lost in the system of attraction that we have, but i was horribly lost because i could not pin down any feelings like someone chasing after a ghost alsfjkds

so, uh... i just wrote 1k of very pretty words so heck if i'm actually deleting all of that because i dunno if my voice means anything or not. mmjklfjklafljs. i'm just gonna call this as a,,, lowkey rant/vent thing of my frustrations with trying to figure this stuff out and a further attempt to figure things out when i don't even know where exactly to start.

(p.s., none of this is even accounting for genderfluid people so ... ndklmcdkld;a;; rip me forgetting me, myself, and i exist u.u)

Edited November 17, 2020 by cyancat

[El011]

Yeah...I'm just not going to deal with that mess of an essay above me but if anyone else wants to take a stab at it that's cool.

[nonmerci]

In fact, isn"t there just a problem with the current orientation system? What I get from this discussion is that people are trying to push non-binary people into a system that is meant to be binary. (chich is what you was saying @cyancat if I understood). The current system was made, at first about sex rather gender I guess, and then for only two : man or woman. It's lik, one divided the world between people who like black chocolate, people who like white chocolat, people who like both or any... and suddenly people decided to include the existence of milky chocolate and they don't know how because there is no place for people who like it in the categories. (hum, I'm not sure of this comparison, just remember that my point is it can't work)

The only solution would probably to change the categories, but to create what? And with what criteria? In particular as the problem is that we can only assumed someone gender, we never know for sure except if the person tell us. Maybe, by defining it by gender expression rather than gender identity?

Just a suggestion. I'm aroace and cisgender so I should probably not talk about all this stuff, sorry. I'm just trying to understand better all of this.

[DeltaAro]

1 hour ago, El011 said:

I'm just not going to deal with that mess of an essay

I found it quite ... creative. ?