I feel like there should be words for sexual preferense disconected from gender

[Skylord]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:11 PM, nonmerci said:

It's lik, one divided the world between people who like black chocolate, people who like white chocolat, people who like both or any... and suddenly people decided to include the existence of milky chocolate and they don't know how because there is no place for people who like it in the categories.

A perfect example. 

[DeltaAro]

22 hours ago, nonmerci said:

Maybe, by defining it by gender expression rather than gender identity?

I have some problems with the concept of gender expression / presentation. It's defined as "outwards appearance, body language, and general behavior" which can mean anything.

There are many of such characteristics which don't have anything to do with gender but are e.g. simply expressions of being part of some other sort of group. So it's no real definition, just a vague hint.

If Greg and Kristy live as squatters, have mohawks, a lot of piercings and tattoos, wear spiked leather jackets, drink a six-pack of beer every day, swear a lot and listen to punk rock non-stop ... they're very similar in appearance, body language and behavior.

If William and Hannah are business consultants, work a lot, are very eloquent, well-dressed, use industry jargon terms, are very polite but sometimes send off an arrogant vibe, etc. ... they're also very similar in appearance, body language and behavior.

Now let's say Greg and William are generally regarded as men, and Kristy and Hannah as women without any second thoughts. How can that be? It must be because gender expression is restricted to a certain dimension of similarity (regarding "outwards appearance, body language, and general behavior").

In modern Western countries skirts are regarded as feminine. So if Kristy and Hannah wear skirts, as different as those skirts might be (punk attire vs business), they share a similarity in stereotypical feminine gender expression. But it's not like humanity at all times regarded skirts as feminine.

So IDK the gendered characteristics come at a scale. From "very hard" (difficult to change, culturally pretty much universal) to "very soft" (easily changeable, different depending on time and place) characteristics.

"Very Hard": Skin, facial features, body composition.
"Hard": pitch of voice, the automatic/unconscious manner body movements are executed (distance between legs when walking).
"Soft": intentional gestures, choice of words.
"Very Soft": Fashion.

E.g. Imperator Furiosa from Mad Max retains the "very hard" characteristics associated with women, but lacks nearly all "softer" ones.

I may be wrong but I think that the "hard" characteristics are way more important than the "soft" ones. For classification and likely sexual attraction. So no matter how I think about it, gender always connects somewhere down the line to some sort of biological sex concept. Now biological sex doesn't have to be considered in an essentialist manner. It's just if we'd truly believe biological sex is wholly made up, there is nothing to it whatsoever, like as if we categorized humanity in Tolkienesque fantasy races ("I'm a dwarf, and you're an elf"), then I think we could also earnestly speak of a "Punk gender". Because gender would be just a random sort of social grouping and a self-identity.