What counts as LGBT

[owl]

Thread has been temporarily locked to allow people to cool down a bit, and allow a bit more time to think about what they're saying. (currently unsure how long to keep this locked, probably not long)

In the mean time, please take a moment to carefully read what others are saying before replying to them, trying to understand what they're saying and not taking things out of context, and when you are posting try to keep it relevant and not aggressive.

 

There's nothing wrong with getting upset, making emotional posts or having strong views. But when you are directing these at other users, this is a bit more of an issue.

 

23 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

It seems like I already am, since you're here, and I learned quickly that @Blue Phoenix Ace is perfectly fine with abusing his power as a mod and ignoring the needs of members more marginalized than he is. One of the first times I ever reported a comment for homophobia, I explained very clearly why it was homophobic. His response was "No it's not, I'm deleting the report." That should tell you something about how qualified or capable he is as a mod when any discussion gets heated and he feels uncomfortable about it.

 

Apologies, I meant as a more private conversation. If you do have problems with this then I think it's something to be taken up more privately with a mod. (But I would just like to let you know, we do as a team discuss reports)

[owl]

Thread unlocked.

 

Again, please try to keep things calm, take a step back and think about what you're posting is relevant to the topic. If you disagree with what someone says, don't bring them personally into it.

[Zema]

I find it rather disheartening that as a community, we can't talk about LGBT+ without a thread getting locked (even if it's just temporarily).

 

Anyway I just wanted to say one thing before buggering off, because it's not really my place to talk about this. I'd just like to say that having more people in a community will overall add to the communities resources. Aros and aces have barely any resources by themselves because the communities are so small. So allowing aros and aces access to LGBT+ resources, adds more people to the LGBT+ community, overall boosting the entire communities resources as a whole. The main reason for this is that people power is a resource in and of itself. So while some aros and aces make take LGBT+ resources because they absolutely need external support, many aros and aces will add much more resources to the community as a whole. As I said in my earlier post, we should be using our differences to bring ourselves together, not to separate us.

 

Just remember, there are definitely aros and aces who will fight for the rights of gay, lesbian, bi, pan and trans people even if they are none of those themselves. 

[Kojote]

On another note, I also find it slightly problematic to just go and put people in the A+ corner. This might work for Aro Aces (though not all of them), but well, see it like this: Where LGBT people have different experiences and problems, non-aro aces and non-ace aros don't only differ, they are each others complete opposite. 

 

I've heard it a couple of times now, that some Aro's left AVEN because of their focus on romance and sentences like "But look we can love and get in a relationship, too" and  others that please the amatonormativity-mindset.

And why wouldn't romantic Aces do that. As their sexual orientation becomes non-existent, their romantic orientation becomes their sole focus. 

On the flip side, non-ace Aros experience the complete opposite of that. Were Aces might be stigmatized as prude, Aro's probably might get stigmatized with cold and predatory. 

Their focus is on sexual and platonic relationships, or maybe even no relationships at all. 

 

I'm not saying that we can't have each others backs. We can and should. I'm just saying that I find it really weird how aces and aros typically get grouped together, even though they are not only different, they are each others mirror opposite (unless your both of course). 

[aussiekirkland]

It's pretty sad that we can't have a discussion about community issues without it turning into an argument. To be honest I don't even remember what this thread was supposed to be about, I've just been reading the mess that has ensued.

 

I feel like we have a similar issue here as on AVEN (which makes me sad because that was one of the reasons I left AVEN, but mainly the alienation and bullying of aromantics as mentioned in @Kojote's last post.) Anyway, with both sites there's been a few very vocal people who have clearly started a disproportionate amount of arguments in what should be a safe space to have discussions and support each other.

 

This probably isn't my place but has admin considered giving people temporary bans? Just like sending them a message warning them if they've broken any T's and C's then banning them for a short amount of time (think putting them in the naughty corner so they can think about what they've done haha). It just seems kind of unfair that you guys have had to close threads and that the majority of people who just wanted to discuss a community issue don't have that space to do it. I definitely don't mean to blame the mods though, I appreciate what you guys do in keeping an eye on discussions and making sure everyone stays civil. At the end of the day you gotta do whatever you think is in the best interest of the Arocalypse community

 

I really hope this post doesn't fuel the fire but I'm not gonna apologise for voicing my opinions. Peace 

[Mark]

On 18/06/2016 at 0:11 PM, Kojote said:

On the flip side, non-ace Aros experience the complete opposite of that. Were Aces might be stigmatized as prude, Aro's probably might get stigmatized with cold and predatory. 

Their focus is on sexual and platonic relationships, or maybe even no relationships at all.

Possibly also stigmatised as "sluts" depending on sexual orientation and/or gender presentation.

[Cassiopeia]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

Possibly also stigmatised as "sluts" depending on sexual orientation and/or gender presentation.

And as a "tease". As far as I have seen most of us are not really the types who'd go around banging everyone in sight who looks even remotely interested. More like quite picky and really careful when it comes to sexual partners. Sex is great, but its just not worth it if I also have a 20 min panic attack because Tinderella is suddenly convinced that I am her princess on the white horse and attempts treat me accordingly.

But the risk assessment usually comes off as a sign of not being serious.

 

I have totally seen this coming. You pretty much can't open any aro or ace themed website without having to face this shitstorm.

 

[morallygayro]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:42 PM, Zemaddog said:

So allowing aros and aces access to LGBT+ resources, adds more people to the LGBT+ community, overall boosting the entire communities resources as a whole. The main reason for this is that people power is a resource in and of itself. So while some aros and aces make take LGBT+ resources because they absolutely need external support, many aros and aces will add much more resources to the community as a whole. As I said in my earlier post, we should be using our differences to bring ourselves together, not to separate us.

Do you think that we have an unlimited number if resources? We don't, and what we do have should go to LGBT people (including LGBT aces and aros, of course!) who are often more in need of them than cishet aces, cishet aros, or cis aroaces.

 

Besides that, it makes more sense to have a separate community for aces and aros: LGBT goals and aro/ace goals and needs are often different and conflict with one another. Romance repulsed and sex repulsed people need spaces free of sex and romance, while LGBT people need spaces where we can safely show affection to one another and be sexual without being demonized for it or told that we deserve AIDS.

 

Aros and aces want visibility, LGBT people want human rights and are already hypervisible (and piggybacking off our hypervisibility, which is literally getting us killed, to gain visibility for yourself is really awful). Aros and aces face social disapproval and invisibility but aren't institutionally oppressed, LGBT people also face both those things PLUS we're institutionally oppressed. LGBT people face discrimination for who we're attracted to and how we experience gender, aros and aces face discrimination for how we experience attraction.

 

And if someone is both (like me!) then yay, they have two communities now. Otherwise, that's great too and you're valid either way...but validity=/=being LGBT, something that a lot of non-LGBT aces and aros seem to forget.

[Zema]

47 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Do you think that we have an unlimited number if resources? We don't, and what we do have should go to LGBT people (including LGBT aces and aros, of course!) who are often more in need of them than cishet aces, cishet aros, or cis aroaces

Of course I don't think the LGBT+ community has unlimited resources. It's utterly ridiculous to think otherwise. Yes, LGBT people should definitely get priority over the resources that the community does have. However, while they are few and far between, there are some cithet aces and aros and cis aroaces who do get treated poorly because of who they are, and sometimes they have nowhere else to turn.

 

53 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Besides that, it makes more sense to have a separate community for aces and aros: LGBT goals and aro/ace goals and needs are often different and conflict with one another. Romance repulsed and sex repulsed people need spaces free of sex and romance, while LGBT people need spaces where we can safely show affection to one another and be sexual without being demonized for it or told that we deserve AIDS.

I 100% agree with you on this. Unfortunately circumstances don't always allow this to happen. I have never felt like I belong in the LGBT+ community because you are right: aces and aros face much different issues to LGBTQIP people. But as I said before it's not always possible to have a separate ace and/or aro community, especially one that isn't on the internet. I have met one other aro person and one ace person (they're the same person), and while I'm going to an ace meet on Friday, there's still only 7 of us. Often times with ace and aro people, they just want a physical community that they can be a part of where they don't feel alienated by society, and LGBT+ communities tend to be the only places where this is possible.

 

57 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Aros and aces want visibility, LGBT people want human rights and are already hypervisible (and piggybacking off our hypervisibility, which is literally getting us killed, to gain visibility for yourself is really awful). Aros and aces face social disapproval and invisibility but aren't institutionally oppressed, LGBT people also face both those things PLUS we're institutionally oppressed. LGBT people face discrimination for who we're attracted to and how we experience gender, aros and aces face discrimination for how we experience attraction.

Again, I 100% agree with you on this. Aces and aros aren't institutionally oppressed. But even still the are some (definitely not the majority) of aces and aros who get treated like shit because of the way they are. Is it too much to ask to get at least some support? And as I said before, most aces and aros are just there for the community, and don't need any resources. Pushing these people away is like pushing away allies who are literally just there to give support.

[Philbo Wiseroot]

On 7/9/2016 at 5:52 AM, Zemaddog said:

Aces and aros aren't institutionally oppressed. But even still the are some (definitely not the majority) of aces and aros who get treated like shit because of the way they are.

I agree (obviously ). Everyone, regardless of their orientation or identity should get the support they need to fit in with a world that isn't set up for them off the bat in some way. Now, whether that means identifying as a member of the LGBT conglomerate or not, that's up to the individual person involved. I'm not sure about what that means for me.

[Miles]

I think, as a nonbinary ace wlw, that it would make more sense for the communities to separate.

 

Positives:

• It more accurately reflects history - until AVEN came along, the A really did stand for ally (in order to protect closeted and questioning people and allow them into LGBT spaces without having to come out or pick a more specific letter)
• The LGBT community was founded to combat homophobia and transphobia, so if you don't experience either there's really no reason for you to need LGBT resources, which are often limited.
  • Like, let's say I'm running an LGBT homeless shelter and two women want a bed, but there's only one left. One of them is a cis aromantic asexual and the other is a trans butch lesbian. The trans woman would face a number of obstacles. Being denied space in women's shelters due to being a trans woman or a lesbian or both, being denied space in most religious facilities for the same reasons, facing a higher risk of sexual assault and/or murder from cis men in a multiple gender homeless shelter, and even possibly being denied space in other LGBT shelters because of people who don't believe that trans women can be gnc or wlw. The cis woman faces none of this and doesn't need that bed, but the trans woman does.
• There are aros and aces who are triggered  or repulsed by PDA or discussion of sex and need a space that's more likely to be free of this, and LGBT people need a place where they can:
  • show affection to their partners without being harassed or feeling like they're making anyone uncomfortable
  • receive sex education
  • discuss sex
• There are LGBT people who are uncomfortable around cis people who aren't attracted to their same gender and they deserve a space that's free of them - even if they're aro and/or ace
• Because we're really not oppressed for being ace or aro, so why do those identities need to be automatically seen as part of a community for oppressed people?
• Because safe spaces aren't necessarily based on what you're not. They're based on what you are. Trans men aren't cis men, and neither are women, but trans men don't belong in women's spaces even though they experience misdirected misogyny. Aroaces aren't m/w attracted, and neither are gay people, but aroaces (unless they're sapphic, achillean, trans, or nonbinary) don't belong in LGBT spaces even though they experience misdirected homophobia.
• Because gay aces and gay aros aren't any less gay than other gay people, bi aces and bi aros aren't any less bi than other bi people, and pan aces and pan aros aren't any less pan than other pan people...so why are straight aces and straight aros any less straight than other straight people?
• There is a lot of homophobia (the word allosexual and all derivatives of it, the concept of allosexual privilege, making jokes about STDs and sex being sinful, sex negativity and slut shaming) and transphobia (trying to pit BT against LG people, erasing trans and nonbinary gay people, comparing trans people who are uncomfortable with aces and aros calling themselves queer to TERFs and truscum) in the ace and aro communities and LGBT aces and aros deserve an escape from that
• Because numerous sapphic, achillean, trans, and nonbinary people have asked cishet aces, cishet aros, and cis aroaces to leave and listening to oppressed communities is important

[Miles]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 0:52 AM, Zemaddog said:

But as I said before it's not always possible to have a separate ace and/or aro community, especially one that isn't on the internet. I have met one other aro person and one ace person (they're the same person), and while I'm going to an ace meet on Friday, there's still only 7 of us. Often times with ace and aro people, they just want a physical community that they can be a part of where they don't feel alienated by society, and LGBT+ communities tend to be the only places where this is possible....

Again, I 100% agree with you on this. Aces and aros aren't institutionally oppressed. But even still the are some (definitely not the majority) of aces and aros who get treated like shit because of the way they are. Is it too much to ask to get at least some support? And as I said before, most aces and aros are just there for the community, and don't need any resources. Pushing these people away is like pushing away allies who are literally just there to give support.

Why is it not possible to have a physical community? There are black ace and aro rings. We can have A-spec alliance meetings in schools. And since a lot of problems that aces and aros face are due to misogyny and patriarchy (i.e. being expected to have sex due to rape culture, misogyny, and toxic masculinity; being shamed for having nonromantic sex due to slut shaming), what aces and aros would benefit from are feminist spaces, which are often welcoming of people of all genders and sexualities.

And I've actually met cis aroaces who spoke over me about homophobia, identified as queer, made jokes about sex being sinful, demanded to be considered LGBT, and became angry when that didn't happen.

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 5:37 PM, Vega said:

Not talking about political rights (excluding those that make life crappier for all single people.)

I'm talking about shitty relatives who talk about how open minded they are but who constantly invalidate my identity and who i could never come out to.

And also on general aro-/acephobia that isn't in law but rather in societal attitudes.

I don't get why you're telling your relatives you're ace in the first place. And a lot of that general aro/acephobia results from misogyny, ableism, racism, and misdirected homophobia.

[SoulWolf]

Okay, whoa... so some of the aro-aces you met IRL were jerks... I'm sorry you were subjected to that. By all means kick out people who are being jerks. And it makes sense to seperate them if you're thinking along the lines of limited resources and such... but aren't aro-aces like really, really rare? The odds of us being able to make groups of more than a handful of people in a city is like... I dunno, kinda small I would imagine. Almost not worth the bother in most cases, probably. So if having a group is the goal, it makes more sense to join in with something already established, even if the problems they face are different, and historically a lot worse. But with any kind of group, there's always the chance that there will be some jerks... which is why it makes more sense to just get rid of those instead of just blanket-ban everyone who doesn't "fit in".

 

42 minutes ago, Miles said:

I don't get why you're telling your relatives you're ace in the first place.

Because not telling them feels like hiding, as long as they keep assuming you're something you're actually not?

 

I can understand why it seems weird for people who are both aro and ace to be part of a community that basically started because of sexual & romantic reasons. It's a weird orientation combination that kind of nullifies the entire point of having an orientation at all. It's this anomaly that doesn't fit any of the other classifications or whatever. I mostly feel the same kind of "out of place" feeling around gay people as I do around straight people. I would never insist on joining any kind of LGBT+ group for that reason. But I think it'd be kinda nice to be invited and welcomed regardless...

[Miles]

14 minutes ago, SoulWolf said:

aren't aro-aces like really, really rare? The odds of us being able to make groups of more than like 1-3 people in a city is like... I dunno, kinda small I would imagine. Almost not worth the bother in most cases, probably.

 

Because not telling them feels like hiding, as long as they keep assuming you're something you're actually not?

But it's still going to matter. I'm not going to risk an LGBT person being denied resources they need. And besides, I already said that non LGBT aces and aros could use feminist resources. They might even benefit from them more than they would LGBT stuff.

 

Also, I don't think your relatives care if you have sexual attraction or not. The only reason I would ever care about that, if one of my relatives told me they were ace, is if I had a kid and needed to know if they were sexually active so I could make sure they wouldn't get STDs or an unwanted pregnancy.

 

And, from experience, as a sapphic ace with an aroace cousin in a conservative family, my conservative relatives didn't care that either of us was ace. They did care that I liked girls, and that she didn't.

[Zema]

12 minutes ago, Miles said:

But it's still going to matter. I'm not going to risk an LGBT person being denied resources they need. And besides, I already said that non LGBT aces and aros could use feminist resources. They might even benefit from them more than they would LGBT stuff.

I feel like you are vastly overestimating the number of cis aros and aces who actually need help. First off, aros and aces are quite rare. Second, I'd wager that most cis aros and aces don't actually need help because they don't face the threat of violence for being aro and ace. Most aces who need support are victims of sexual harassment and assault. And if you think that denying support to victims of sexual harassment assault is at all ok, you are just a horrible human being.

 

And also, just because a lot of the hate that aros and aces is just misplaced some other form of discrimination, doesn't mean it's not real. It doesn't matter if they get hate because someone thinks they're gay. Someone is still hating on them for having a sexual orientation that isn't straight.

 

If someone just wants to be a part of a community where they won't be judged because of their sexual orientation, why can't they? If you hadn't noticed, working towards a world without discrimination because of sexual orientation, gender identity etc, is only one part of what LGBT+ communities do. A lot of it is just providing a community. Which if you didn't already know, communities are made stronger when they are more people.

 

One last point, if you want to end discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity etc. maybe start by stopping discriminating aces and aros because of these things.

[DannyFenton123]

This topic is getting heated, so I'm locking it for now.

[Tal Shi'ar]

Since it's cooled down, it's getting unlocked.

[Philbo Wiseroot]

On 10/27/2016 at 9:01 PM, Miles said:

I don't get why you're telling your relatives you're ace in the first place.

Simple: as @SoulWolf said, it feels like hiding. Also, it feels great to actually talk about it with family and friends (though I plan on telling exactly zero (what I like to call) "blood-and-marriage" relatives because they are prejudiced against asexuality and aromanticism because they're not part of the "gay, straight, or bi" triad.

 

On 10/27/2016 at 10:21 PM, Zemaddog said:

A lot of it is just providing a community

This is basically my argument about using labels for GSRM people. Some people I know think otherwise (in other words, that the labels inherently turn us into the thing that we label ourselves as instead of being used to describe our experiences). But to me, the labels are a way of finding other similar people (so we know we're not alone in the world), as well as showing the relevant policymakers that we exist so they can provide for us in law and policy.

Quote

What counts as LGBT

To return to the original question, I tend to use LGBTQ, with the Q meaning any other identity that isn't lesbian, gay, bi, or trans. I also like GSRM/GSM (Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities), as it emphasises that romantic orientations exist, where LGBTQ and MOGII (Marginalised Orientations, Gender Identities, and Intersex) do not, though GSRM doesn't include intersex people, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 

To me, if you want to identify as LGBTQ, you can.

[aussiekirkland]

21 hours ago, Kaiger Pufflehugs IV said:

To return to the original question, I tend to use LGBTQ, with the Q meaning any other identity that isn't lesbian, gay, bi, or trans. I also like GSRM/GSM (Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities), as it emphasises that romantic orientations exist, where LGBTQ and MOGII (Marginalised Orientations, Gender Identities, and Intersex) do not, though GSRM doesn't include intersex people, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 

To me, if you want to identify as LGBTQ, you can.

I also like using LGBTQ for those reasons. Of the well known identifiers, I feel it is most inclusive while not turning into an alleged alphabet soup.

 

It's also very widely used by LGBTQ organisations and they often specify later on the included identities which tends to go something like "our services are designed for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual people and anyone else under the queer umbrella" and it's easy to see why that could get long.

 

Personally, I do identify as part of the LGBTQ community but I also think it's important to recognise my privelage in those spaces (mostly in terms of my other identities) so while I happily go to pride events, I wouldn't use resources that other people need a lot more than me.

[Confirmed Bachelor]

Bisexual people are really only counted if they are in a same-gender relationship. Otherwise, they are not welcomed. I suspect the same will always be the case with asexual and aromantic people. 

[fairytalefanfor1]

I think spaces for lgbt+ people in general should be inclusive of people who are ace or aro that want to be a part of their spaces and support their fellow gay, bi, trans, etc. people. I honestly see no reason why you wouldn't want to be a part of the moment for people be be seem and accepted regardless of sexual or gender identity and more, but I personally do think you have the right to label yourself as a part of the group as a whole if you don't fit being cisgender, heteroromantic, and heterosexual or are intersex.

[Zema]

24 minutes ago, Just like Jughead said:

Bisexual people are really only counted if they are in a same-gender relationship. Otherwise, they are not welcomed. I suspect the same will always be the case with asexual and aromantic people. 

There has also been a push recently (albeit, a rather small one) to remove transgender from the LGBT+ community. Why? I don't know. There's always been gatekeepers in the LGBT+ community.

[aussiekirkland]

1 hour ago, Just like Jughead said:

Bisexual people are really only counted if they are in a same-gender relationship. Otherwise, they are not welcomed. I suspect the same will always be the case with asexual and aromantic people. 

I hate that so much. Biphobia is so stupid and bi people have been in the community for a long time so I can't understand why some still think like this.

[Tal Shi'ar]

2 hours ago, Just like Jughead said:

Bisexual people are really only counted if they are in a same-gender relationship. Otherwise, they are not welcomed. I suspect the same will always be the case with asexual and aromantic people. 

 

Being in an opposite sex relationship doesn't stop someone from being any less bi/queer. I might also suggest to be careful with such unwarranted comments as well.

[iigolden]

Previously, I've always thought that anyone who wasn't straight was in the LGBT group. You can be cis gender and bisexual and in the LGBT group, right?  

Or I suppose I'm just a dummy!