Wikipedia page

[nonmerci]

So as we talk here, I am interested in creating a Wikipedia page about aromanticism, because we lack one and let's be honnest : it is very important for visibility and people people believing we exist.

However I can't picture myself to do it alone (because it is about all the communauté,  not just me), and because as people said in the other thread it can be long.

 

I will not have the time to be involved in it before the end of the month,  but as arocalypse may be closing ? I am looking now for people who are interesting. If so, please say it here or send me a private message.

[Holmbo]

I'm not sure what the rules are for creating new pages. Doesn't there have to be a certain amount of visits or something like that?

[nonmerci]

For what I understand,  the rules is that new pages have to have references, sources. It seems they prefer articles from known media  rather than ressources from organizations like AUREA. Which I can understand, but will ask to look for articles.

 

The thing is : anybody can write on Wikipedia, but you have to prove that what you say is true.

[Magni]

I agree this is an important thing we should work towards doing.  And yeah, it is an irritating problem where we need "official" academic sources in a way that is rather gatekeeping against queer communities such as ours.  Now, I don't really have much knowledge or experience with Wiki, so someone who knows more would be useful, but I'm gonna try to gather information that we could use as a starting place at least? 

 

Also, I hope we can keep this thread on topic to productively work towards a solution for this problem rather than getting sidetracked by arguments and specific things that don't matter much and would be better in a different thread.

Links to other forum threads about this issue:

1. This one you already linked to: https://www.arocalypse.com/topic/2857-aro-representation-in-lgbt-places/

 

 

2. This other thread from spring 2018: https://www.arocalypse.com/topic/1326-wikipedia-article/

 

 

 

Links to sources of info that might be useful for compiling info:

1. There were a fair many articles from news sources that may be considered more official during ASAW, some linked in AUREA's roundup post here: https://www.aromanticism.org/en/news-feed/asaw-2020-recap

 

2. Research page from AUREA, there's not a whole lot that is directly about aromanticism that would be considered "official" by wiki's standards unfortunately, but there's a fair bit discussing stuff like Amatonormativity which presumably could be discussed as part of an article: https://www.aromanticism.org/en/research

•  There's other stuff under resources there including other organizations, mainly ones that are ace & aro, wiki might not particularly like those kind of sources but maybe having multiple organizations discussing same things would be sufficient?

Current Wiki articles useful for content ideas:

 

1. Section under romantic orientations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_orientation#Aromanticism

• presumably, best approach would be to expand what is currently there and work on developing into full individual article thing?
• apparently amatonormativity already has its own article? which makes sense bc of the context it was proposed with, but yeah...
• looking through the links in the aro section there can help us gauge what sort of thing would work.

 

2. Aromantic Wiki: https://aromantic.wikia.org/wiki/Aromantic

• Wiki/Wikia is kinda separate not official thing, but it can provide ideas about what things can be talked about and we can work on finding more proper sources.
• One thing to possibly add to bulk up article would be various arospec identities, if we can find adequate sources discussing them.

 

3. Asexual Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality

• Is useful to look at parallel examples for common ground and there is common ground between our communities historically and also in the structure/timeline of our communities gaining visibility.  Also, possibly some of sources that are cited for that might mention aromanticism too.
• They have a section for "in the media" with ace characters, something similar could be useful

4. Nonbinary wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

• not as much overlap as asexual, but another more "new" queer community that could be useful for inspiration.

 

Wiki Editing Policy stuff:

1. Official editing policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_policy

 

2. This is something from diverse group discussing wiki editing stuff that might be helpful?: http://www.artandfeminism.org/ and pdf/powerpoint from them: http://www.artandfeminism.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AF_QuickGuideforEditors.pdf

 

3. What wiki considers reliable sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources


***
So, I hope this is a good starting point and that we can get more people interested in helping work on this

[Magni]

I've been hyperfocusing on researching and I've found many links, and will put some of the most useful ones here.  I've been searching using google scholar for anything mentioning "aromantic" and "aromanticism".  Many things I've found primarily discuss asexuality but also explicitly mention aromanticism.  Between that and paywalls, some of the best articles I've found in full are thesis papers, and I'm unsure how "official" they would be considered for our purposes.

 

Mentions but not much depth on aromanticism:

1. https://commons.emich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://scholar.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1090&context=mcnair

• acknowledges aro spectrum and it paralleling ace spectrum; mentions how, for example, aromantic may be less welcome in queer spaces than biromantic ace and other problems aro exclusion in queer spaces; mentions queerplatonic; 

 

2. http://172.104.209.62/tuljournals/index.php/perceptions/article/view/147/144

• talks about queer media representation and say "aromantic asexuals are almost entirely unrepresented"

3. https://philpapers.org/archive/JACLFB-2.pdf

• Parallels bi & a-spec erasure; uses the word allosexual; discusses how people dislike a-specs for not conforming to expectations for intimate relationships and how it's more prominent for people who are aro rather than just for people who are alloro ace.

4. https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=L9CwDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PT123&dq="aromantic"&ots=I2uTh1HQ5l&sig=dhnQc4qdKzxm4-49-Qt_v5r-iDY

• defines aro, grayro, and demiro; "the fact that many definitions for aforementioned words mainly only exist in online social media groups (such as tumblr and reddit) underscores the continuing invisibility [of a-spec community] in academic contexts"
• (out of ace people) mentions how heteroromantic and aromantic people feel alienated from queer/lgbtqa groups without other queer identity (consistent with stuff from 1st article)

5. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2018.1531281

• analyzes queer intimacy/relationship diversity and specifically acknowledges aro (though really not much good detailed info)

6. https://munin.uit.no/bitstream/handle/10037/8108/thesis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

• argues why Katniss from Hunger Games can canonically be considered aromantic (also, interestingly, this is specifically aromantic without really mentioning asexual)

Comparatively better in depth info on aro stuff:

1. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=jj_etds

• Mentions anyone of any sexual orientation can be aromantic and that some aromantic people do date
• Conflation of asexual with aromantic and how that's misunderstood stereotype, microaggressions such as parents reacting more negatively to perception of kids being aro when coming out as opposed to just ace (so, acknowledges some of microaggressions tied more to being aro than to being ace)
• mentions media with microagressions, and specifically the aromanticism and asexuality of Jughead Jones being erased by TV show.

2. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ela_Przybylo/publication/337089696_Asexual_Erotics_Intimate_Readings_of_Compulsory_Sexuality/links/5dc48588a6fdcc2d2ffb683e/Asexual-Erotics-Intimate-Readings-of-Compulsory-Sexuality.pdf

• mentions connection between aromantic and amatonormativity
• mentions aromantic as part of a spectrum

3. https://digital.library.ryerson.ca/islandora/object/RULA:5628/datastream/OBJ/download/For_lack_of_a_better_word__neo-identities_in_non-cisgender__non-straight_communities_on_Tumblr___.pdf (this one might be my favorite)

• talks about neoidentities on tumblr, talks about communities finding words which "official"/academic sources tend to not acknowledge
• mentions and defines "less common" identities including nebularomantic, idemromantic, akoi/lithromantic, and recipromantic; generally acknowledges diverse experiences of aro spectrum
• acknowledges that while asexuality gains recognition, aromanticism is still relatively unknown

 

***

 

Things can talk about in article:

• can mention aro characters, this has Jughead & Katniss, would want to look into others
• Some stuff for discussing aro spectrum and various identities
• some stuff acknowledging alienation/dehumanization/microaggressions against aromantics, and it being different or worse against aro aces than against alloro aces
• several things explicitly acknowledging that people can be aro and not ace (aka allosexual), though unfortunately hard to find stuff going into more depth on that since most things look at aro aces.
• can elaborate some stuff of connections of aromantic with amatonormativity and with relationship stuff

 

Future Research:

• discussing aro history and organizations with sufficiently "official" sources? there's many stuff mentioning things like the founding of AVEN, parallel stuff about arocalypse and AUREA seems reasonable to include.
• more research for more aro characters can bulk stuff up with some, along with aro celebrities ideally; can include discussion about how very rare any representation is

[nonmerci]

Wow thanks Magni! If I have time I will look at all this today,  otherwise tomorrow. It is very helpful! In particular because I thought nobody was interested, I'm glad now.

[Magni]

Yeah, I think in general there are people who are interested but it's the kind of the thing that feels overwhelmingly big, and then the logistics of organizing interested people can be difficult.  It would be ideal to put together a bit of a team to work on things? Forum thread is great starting point for making things visible but long term makes sense to work from google docs and, ideally imo, would be good to have a groupchat on discord too.  I'll probably make a post on tumblr linking to this thread at some point, possibly later today, to try and get more interest.

It would be good if people who are at all interested in helping commented on this thread and, if possible, talked about what they feel they can help with? I'll start:

Things I'm good at and can contribute to:

• I'm pretty good at people organizing and setting the ball moving on working on things
• I can hyperfocus on gathering research stuff and have ideas for organizing information
• I feel somewhat competent at writing research papers and knowing how to cite stuff in general (I'm a college student and have written several big papers like that, but mainly do STEM stuff)

 

Things I'm not so good at:

• While I'm good at hyperfocusing on stuff in short term, I'm not great at independently checking up on doing things unless other people are also doing the thing and reminding me
• I'm not great at knowing how to phrase the word things, so while I can gather research and have an idea of what to talk about and how to organize it, it's harder for me to focus on actually wording it well, so people who are capable of synthesizing the information in a nicely worded format would be helpful
• I've never really edited wikipedia stuff so someone who has actual experience with that would be helpful
  
  Edit/Addition: I made a tumblr post about this here

[Milo_s64]

Books might be good sources as well! I know a lot of lgbt authors have compiled 'survival guides' that kinda go through different lgbt identities! I did a whole project on lgbt books in my children's literature class last year, and I know The ABCs of LGBT by Ash Hardell (which is available for free online!) definitely mentions aro identities! I also think the author may also be aspec!  

 

And if we wanted to talk about amatonormativity, it was coined by Elizabeth Brake in Minimizing Marriage, Marriage, Morality and the Law. The author doesn't directly mention aromanticism but I think it would be cool to talk about how feminism and other social issues have influenced aromantic communities as well!  

 

 

 

 

,

 

 

[nonmerci]

Thanks you!

 

So, if we are sayign what we are good at or not, I'd say :

 

-I am good at syntheses

-I can translate the article in French so we can add it to the French wikipedia if the article is accepted

 

 

-I am not an English native speaker so what I write will need correction to be in a proper language I think

-I don't know a lot of ressources (but I am willing to change that); if there is one thing I've learned from university, it is how scholar articles bored me, except maybe if I am really interested in the subject (good point though, aromanticism is interesting, yeah!)

 

On 3/23/2020 at 3:38 AM, Magni said:

Things can talk about in article:

• can mention aro characters, this has Jughead & Katniss, would want to look into others
• Some stuff for discussing aro spectrum and various identities
• some stuff acknowledging alienation/dehumanization/microaggressions against aromantics, and it being different or worse against aro aces than against alloro aces
• several things explicitly acknowledging that people can be aro and not ace (aka allosexual), though unfortunately hard to find stuff going into more depth on that since most things look at aro aces.
• can elaborate some stuff of connections of aromantic with amatonormativity and with relationship stuff

 

Future Research:

• discussing aro history and organizations with sufficiently "official" sources? there's many stuff mentioning things like the founding of AVEN, parallel stuff about arocalypse and AUREA seems reasonable to include.
• more research for more aro characters can bulk stuff up with some, along with aro celebrities ideally; can include discussion about how very rare any representation is

I agree. I will add maybe something about the connections with the ace community, and the limits of this connection? Maybe in the historical part. And also, not forget the limits othe connection to adress the problem of confusing both terms, in particular in regards of allo aro who are the less known of us.

Maybe people in this thread can help with the history part?

 

 

Other link I find

http://cj.chasin.ca/Chasin_Making.sense.of.asexual.community_JCASP.2014.pdf a study about amatonormativity in Bond's movies. Though it doesn't say aromanticism, it denounces how in recent movies, love is seen as something universally desirable. Also, from what I get (a bit hard when you haven't seen the movies lol) : it connected amatonormativity and gender roles. The idea is that the recent movies are seen as progressive, because of romance that makes Bond changes; but in fact it is not, the model of hypermasculinity becomes a model of toxic masculinity, and friendship of work are seen as not valuable as romantic love.

 

I am trying to find specific aro allo thing, or just articles about aromanticism that are not entitled as asexual articles, but my, this is hard...

Edited March 24, 2020 by nonmerci

[hemogoblin]

On 3/23/2020 at 5:02 PM, Magni said:

Yeah, I think in general there are people who are interested but it's the kind of the thing that feels overwhelmingly big, and then the logistics of organizing interested people can be difficult.

 

Absolutely, yes! This! Sorry for the resounding silence. I, for one, am interested, but I just don't know how much I could really contribute. I've never done writing on wiki or even a wikia, so a lot of the formatting (from the minor amounts of edits I've participated in on wikia's) is overwhelming. As well, while I feel I could help write up and/or proofread sections, I don't think I could really provide the sources that wiki requires, so in the end, my participation could just end up creating more work on others!

 

I think this is a great idea, and an aromantic page on wiki would be great, but I've been silent because I just don't think I have anything I can actually add to help the effort. =x

Edited March 25, 2020 by pressAtoQUEER
fixed an accidental double word

[nonmerci]

On 3/24/2020 at 11:02 PM, pressAtoQUEER said:

Absolutely, yes! This! Sorry for the resounding silence. I, for one, am interested, but I just don't know how much I could really contribute. I've never done writing on wiki or even a wikia, so a lot of the formatting (from the minor amounts of edits I've participated in on wikia's) is overwhelming. As well, while I feel I could help write up and/or proofread sections, I don't think I could really provide the sources that wiki requires, so in the end, my participation could just end up creating more work on others!

Feel free to participate if you want to! To be honest, even if I initiate the idea, I am like you. I am now trying to familiar with links and sources but this not natural for me at all. It just occurs to me at some point that probably most of aros are like me : upset or sad because we have no wikipedia page, but feeling not legetimate to wrtie it. I was hoping that if someone initiate the project, interesting aros will manifest themselves and we can help each other.

 

And about the fact that you never participate to wikipedia... well, I get the idea after reading a book about Wikipedia, and learning more about it (that was for my studies, understanding Wikipedia better can help me). And one of the idea that guides wiki is : everybody can write in it. That's the point. If you feel like you can contribute to increase the encyclopedia, just do it. I think you don't even need an account (well, I will still check that point). Is collaborative, you are invited to write as long as you write true things (and that's chy sources are so important, because you have to prove what you say is true as exhausting as it is). This is when I realized that yeah, I can write a wiki article about aromanticism even I never write anything on wikipedia before. Because it needs to be done. And as nobody has written it yet, why not me? And why not ask for help from other aros, as I can picture myself to do it alone and say "hi, I wrote it and if you are angry I don't care"? I just realized I would be glad to collaborate with other aros on it.

 

(sorry it was a bit long)

Edited March 27, 2020 by nonmerci

[kernsing]

I'd be interested in helping, although I'm not sure how much I'll be able to do. I can proofread/edit and possibly write.

 

Is Psychology Today an acceptable source? Bella DePaulo (who has a PhD, which is good, right?) has an article up about aromanticism, some parts of which I'm dissatisfied with but it does mention aro allos & aro aces as distinct groups and amatonormativity. She's written better articles about singlism/discrimination against single people, which we could mention if we want to talk about amatonormativity: here's one about housing discrimination and one about workplace benefits (this one on WaPo). She's also written a book and some scholarly articles on single people, but I don't really know what those are like.

 

Are we organizing this on Arocalypse (like on this thread?), will we have a Google Doc, something else?

 

EDIT: Looking at the Wikipedia talk pages, it may be more effective if we first expand the aromanticism section under the romantic orientation page and then argue that it should be its own page once it's bigger.

Edited March 27, 2020 by kernsing
added content

[Lokiana]

1 hour ago, kernsing said:

EDIT: Looking at the Wikipedia talk pages, it may be more effective if we first expand the aromanticism section under the romantic orientation page and then argue that it should be its own page once it's bigger.

 

That actually is a really good idea. If different people add small contributions and the section grows really large, someone would be able to propose moving it, which would be less sudden than creating another page that might get merged back into asexuality.

 

One thing AUREA might be useful for, if not citing as a source, would be sourcing flags - including the aroallo and the aroace flag. Since Wikipedia doesn't accept Tumblr as a source and most news articles will use the main aromantic flag. It might be good to include those flags because they are more prominent recently.

[Magni]

7 hours ago, Lokiana said:

One thing AUREA might be useful for, if not citing as a source, would be sourcing flags - including the aroallo and the aroace flag. Since Wikipedia doesn't accept Tumblr as a source and most news articles will use the main aromantic flag. It might be good to include those flags because they are more prominent recently.

I agree for aro allo flag but not on aroace bc there's not a concretely agreed upon aroace flag so it wouldn't make sense to include in a wiki.  (wanted reply to this one thing but should reply to other stuff here later in general when have more mental energy)

[nonmerci]

Thanks for your responses ! 

Yes, I think we should create a Google doc, in particular when it will come to redaction, but also to summarize the ressources.

And begining by expanding the aromantic section in romantic orientation seems like an excellent idea!

[nonmerci]

Sorry, I wasn't very active here for a few days. I am a bit buzzy right now (you would think I'd have plenty of time, now that  I can't leave home because of covid-19... but in fact, we are thinking of all the things we'd like to do but we can't usually, and we have to much things to do now lol).

 

I fing that in huffpost

What it means to be aromantic according to aromantic people

This what it means to be aromantic, demiromantic and queerplatonic

 

An article from the guardian

An article from Washington Post about amatonormativity (based on Brake's work) and another about stupid things people say to single people (not specifically about aromanticism, but I thought it could be used if we talk about discrimination or pressure against us).

 

I also take some sources from the romantic orientation page on Wikipedia.

7 facts about aromantic people

How popculture denies aromantic asexual existence

Romance is not universal, not necessary

An article about aromantic (and asexual) erasure

There were other things, I just take some. It was just to note some idea of sources that was accepted.

 

I think I should make a google doc with all the references we have already bee quoted. And then study more the aromantic section of the romantic orientation article, to see what we could detail more (if someone else wants to do it, be free to do, of course, this is teamwork). I tried to work on that this week or the next week. 

[LemonCupcakes]

Hello,

I just read all of this thread and think this is a brilliant idea! I would love to help in some way, but I have no experience writing Wikipedia articles so I’m not sure how to help exactly. I can proofread (and maybe write), and would be happy to translate anything you guys come up with into German if that’s helpful?

[chrysalism]

I feel like it's relevant to point out that there is a wikipedia page for aromanticism in Portuguese and Czech (though I don't understand Czech so can't speak for its quality). While the one in Portuguese is far from perfect, it's not bad, and most of the sources are in English, so I think it's worth checking out. Both of them are longer than the section under romantic orientation in English, too, so they might be a good point to expand on.

1. Portuguese page: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arromanticidade

• briefly describes queerplatonic relationships, but doesn't mention them by name, instead using 'a type of platonic relationship';
• mentions platoniromantic and quoiromantic by name as labels in the aromantic spectrum, both as 'having difficulty telling the difference between familial/platonic affection and romantic affection' (note: this is said in the introduction, there isn't a section listing common arospec identities);
• explains alloromanticism;
• mentions agamy, nonamory, polyamory and free love;
• overall, it's broader than the section under romantic attraction in English, but it also contains direct translations of most, if not all, of what is said there.

2. Czech page: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromantická_orientace

[Magni]

So, I wanted to start actually putting together some google docs.  Currently I have the links set so people can comment, which should mean you can suggest edits but they need to be approved, bc I am a bit wary about outright posting a editable link where anyone could theoretically access.  If people DM me though I would be able to give them a link with access to outright edit it.

So, this document is for compiling sources, and I already copy pasted some stuff that we've put in this thread: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X3MugUx9LDTrKVG9bv9XSWaIa0CeOCb2D8156NKoCAc/edit?usp=sharing

 

This is where we can start drafting the actual article: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DSpagYV508Aubm5guBjg-uuAA0NdahL_ygTknRX_ngs/edit?usp=sharing I vaguely tried to put a start at various section headings for things to write about but I'm not very good at actually doing the more in depth word things, but people who are good at that part it would be good to start working on that aspect?  I feel we've compiled a fair many sources and should start thinking about how to put it together, and then can consider what other resources we might need.

 

[nonmerci]

Thanks all.

Sorry I was busy last days with other stuff, so I give no news.

I'll look at all this during the week.

[nonmerci]

So, about the draft, I added "amatonormativity" and "struggles and stereotypes"; however, I think we can discuss "struggles" in "amatonormativity" as it is connected, and maybe "stereotypes" in the entrance "aromanticism", as it is about definitions, and so we can discuss about what is not aromanticism (aka, heartless people, people who are scared of commitment") in that. I just put it here so we don't forget. Is it okay for you?

Also, I will probably organized the ressources in thematics, so it is easier to find them. Just need to take time in the week for that.

20 hours ago, chrysalism said:

I feel like it's relevant to point out that there is a wikipedia page for aromanticism in Portuguese and Czech (though I don't understand Czech so can't speak for its quality). While the one in Portuguese is far from perfect, it's not bad, and most of the sources are in English, so I think it's worth checking out. Both of them are longer than the section under romantic orientation in English, too, so they might be a good point to expand on.

Oh I had no idea! Thanks.

22 hours ago, LemonCupcakes said:

I can proofread (and maybe write), and would be happy to translate anything you guys come up with into German if that’s helpful?

That would be hepful, thanks! Also, the most we can translate it in other languages, the most we can touch people.

An don't worry, none of us has experience with Wikipedia, so you're like us. (in fact, maybe it should worry you lol, but we'll do our best).

[Autumn]

I'm definitely interested in helping this come about! I can write and organize well, so if someone gathers the info I can figure out how to phrase it on the doc for writing out the page itself. I basically know how to cite things from college, but if someone more practiced at it wants to handle that, that could be good as well. I've never edited or used Wikipedia in any way other than 'reading pages that already exist' so that would be a learning curve, but I feel quite certain I could figure it out if there isn't anyone else who already has that experience.

[aro_elise]

sounds like you guys have a good plan!  i wouldn't know how to help except to edit; my spelling and grammar are near perfect, if i may say so.  and @nonmerci, i'd love to read your translation, just out of interest, since i'm fluent enough to read it but not to write it.

[Magni]

I have not had the focus to actively work on this, but I see someone has left comments on the google doc which is good.  Reminder to send me a message if you want to be specifically added to the google doc so can edit it directly. (also just generally wanted to post an update of sorts here to bring it back up in uh notification stream as nudge to people that this is a thing that trying work on).

[boba]

I'm willing to help! I'm a native English speaker, if that helps? I know GLAAD has an article/thing on aromanticism, if that's acceptable? I've never done any Wikipedia work, but if wanted, I can get a Viet translation!