Gender

[Morgenfluss]

I haven't seen a poll like this yet, but I was quite curious, because to me it seemed as if there are an above-average amount of fellow enbys on here.

[Guest]

Non binary , my gender is… not quite agender so i use neutral.

[BlueKumul]

Not sure what all these terms are for. Human bodies come in two basic varieties, male and female. For personality and presentation, three terms seem helpful: masculine, feminine and androgynous. Everything else seems sort of scholastic.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Blazkovitz said:

Human bodies come in two basic varieties, male and female

And intersex. They exist too. But i am not intersex myself so i am not the one who will talk about it with you.

 

7 hours ago, Blazkovitz said:

For personality and presentation, three terms seem helpful: masculine, feminine and androgynous. Everything else seems sort of scholastic.

That however that concern me. I am not sure i understand what you are talking about… you know we are talking about gender right? Not look…

And non binary is not just "between man and woman" . It's anything that is not 100% man or woman. My gender is not "androgynous" but i am very not a man or a woman.

 

 

Edit : oh wait you're Spacenik86... you said some transphobic stuff before and never seemingly learned from it. Never mind. 

[nonmerci]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 12:17 PM, Blazkovitz said:

Not sure what all these terms are for. Human bodies come in two basic varieties, male and female. For personality and presentation, three terms seem helpful: masculine, feminine and androgynous. Everything else seems sort of scholastic.

Did you ever heard about intersex people? Most of the time they are operate at birth so they can be male or female (which is most often a terrible thing or them, in particular when the sex that has been chose is "the wrong one"), and then have to take hormones or thing like that to complete because their body don't do it. Some people are spared from this operation and so they are not male or female, but this is not common because often doctors forced the parents to chose (however I think they are trying to change this, but I suppose it must be difficult). This operation is not a natural thing. Intersex is real, even if people prefer to forget it to keep it simple...

 

Also, I don't think your three terms are useful at all. What is androgynous? That sounds like a large category where a lot of things are melted. And I don't think it fits all non-binary people.

I'll be honest : I have a hard time understand all these things about genre, or why it is important for people. But I'm trying to, and I won't write this kind of statements. I actually think that to speak of something, you have to understand it (understand doesn't mean you have to experience it yourself, you can understand it on the intellectual level).

Plus, I Don't think that we can reduce this to personality and presentation as you say… I mean, I'm not feminine, but I'm still a woman.

 

Anyway, I am a ciswoman, tough I am not a "feminine" woman. For instance I don't understand make-up at all.

 

Sometimes I feel like there is more non-binary or trans people here, but maybe it's because I never met in real life (I think)? Sometimes I'm wondering if aromanticism or asexuality affect gender Identity. I Don't know, but I feel like some gender coded things are linked to seduction and gender-role in a couple Not everything, of course; but for instance, it seems for me that when it comes to clothes, a feminine style is often associated with seduction (like a boyfriend complaining because his girlfriend is not feminine enough, he thinks she doesn't seduce him without "feminine" clothes).

[BlueKumul]

21 hours ago, nonmerci said:

Did you ever heard about intersex people? Most of the time they are operate at birth so they can be male or female (which is most often a terrible thing or them, in particular when the sex that has been chose is "the wrong one"), and then have to take hormones or thing like that to complete because their body don't do it. Some people are spared from this operation and so they are not male or female, but this is not common because often doctors forced the parents to chose (however I think they are trying to change this, but I suppose it must be difficult). This operation is not a natural thing. Intersex is real, even if people prefer to forget it to keep it simple...

 

I know about intersex but it's quite rare so thinking too much about it distracts from the fundamental facts. You don't have 71 sexes like Facebook wants you to believe.

 

Quote

Also, I don't think your three terms are useful at all. What is androgynous? That sounds like a large category where a lot of things are melted.

And I don't think it fits all non-binary people.

 

Can you give me examples of non-binary behaviour or presentation that is not androgynous or gender neutral?

I think my behaviour and presentation are quite neutral with some masculine bent in some aspects.

 

Quote

I Don't know, but I feel like some gender coded things are linked to seduction and gender-role in a couple Not everything, of course; but for instance, it seems for me that when it comes to clothes, a feminine style is often associated with seduction (like a boyfriend complaining because his girlfriend is not feminine enough, he thinks she doesn't seduce him without "feminine" clothes).

 

That's a good point. What the point of gender without sex? Wouldn't it be like a sub-culture then?

[nonmerci]

4 hours ago, Blazkovitz said:

Can you give me examples of non-binary behaviour or presentation that is not androgynous or gender neutral?

To begin you seem to use "androgynous" and "gender neutral" as synonymous while they are not for me. I understand androgynous as a mixed of masculine and feminine, and neutral as something who is no feminine nor masculine. Of course I can be wrong, as I am not a master of these notions; I'll let concerned people explain, it will be pretty interesting.

Then this thing with feminine/masculine is western-centered. In other cultures genres can be seen completely differently. I have to search for articles about it, but I know that some cultures see a lot more genres than that. I know some transgenres don't like this idea, but genre is mainly a social construct; and then, there is the way people place themselves in this social construct. But social construct change when you change the society or culture. 

[BlueKumul]

2 hours ago, nonmerci said:

To begin you seem to use "androgynous" and "gender neutral" as synonymous while they are not for me. I understand androgynous as a mixed of masculine and feminine, and neutral as something who is no feminine nor masculine.

 

This is also a fine point. For example a robot is gender neutral, but not androgynous. In my case though, androgynous works pretty well. I have some masculine traits like interest in warfare, and some feminine traits like need for emotional expression.

[Tagor]

3 hours ago, Blazkovitz said:

This is also a fine point. For example a robot is gender neutral, but not androgynous. In my case though, androgynous works pretty well. I have some masculine traits like interest in warfare, and some feminine traits like need for emotional expression.

I jut wanted to say that I would not call an interest in warfare a masculin trait and especially wouldn't call need for emotional expression a feminine trait. The latter is close to a basic human need, and the former has more to do with upbringing and education (which might be influenced by gender) than with gender.

 

 

My stance on sex and gender is that i pretty much don't care. When it comes to sex i got kind of lucky with being male, as it aligns with my interests and tends to give you more possibilities in society (and menstrual period sounds really painful).

Gender never really was a thing that interested me. Identifying as male is just the easiest choice, but I think if things were different I wouldn't have many problems with adapting.

 

 

On 12/1/2019 at 2:06 PM, nonmerci said:

Sometimes I feel like there is more non-binary or trans people here, but maybe it's because I never met in real life (I think)? Sometimes I'm wondering if aromanticism or asexuality affect gender Identity. I Don't know, but I feel like some gender coded things are linked to seduction and gender-role in a couple Not everything, of course; but for instance, it seems for me that when it comes to clothes, a feminine style is often associated with seduction (like a boyfriend complaining because his girlfriend is not feminine enough, he thinks she doesn't seduce him without "feminine" clothes).

I think that romantic and sexual attraction plays a big part in defining gender. At least I think that for me, gender would be even more irrelevant if I wasn#T sexually attracted towards women. (And why would somebody ever complain about his girlfriend not wearing feminine/"seductive" clothes? First of all, it's her choice what she wants to wear, and on top of that, in my opinion, sexual attraction is just distracting most of the time and I'd be glad if everybody wore androgynous clothes).

[nonmerci]

10 hours ago, Tagor said:

And why would somebody ever complain about his girlfriend not wearing feminine/"seductive" clothes? First of all, it's her choice what she wants to wear

I don't know, but I see some people do it. I suppose that some kind of sexist thing, like "you see this sexy woman? She is miiiiiiiiine".

 

10 hours ago, Tagor said:

My stance on sex and gender is that i pretty much don't care. When it comes to sex i got kind of lucky with being male, as it aligns with my interests and tends to give you more possibilities in society (and menstrual period sounds really painful).

Gender never really was a thing that interested me. Identifying as male is just the easiest choice, but I think if things were different I wouldn't have many problems with adapting.

I got you. I identify as woman because I am born woman, and I'm not sure if it would change if I was born man. Sometimes I think I may still identify as a woman, but sometimes no. I think I would still don't care. As I said, I don't think about my gender as a personality trait (maybe more as a combinaison of personality traits?), I don't think it affects my personality at all (maybe it is the other way around, my personality affects how I see gender?). It's not something I ever think about it. Is doesn't care a cis thing, or are there cis that actually cares?

[DaviM703]

I've recently been considering that I might not be entirely a man, because I don't really conform to what's expected of a man in terms of what I'm interested in, what I like, what I want from relationships, or hair length. I've been living how I want without much regard for gender norms for a while, but I don't really feel totally like a man so I think I may be non-binary.

[BlueKumul]

9 hours ago, DavidMS703 said:

I've recently been considering that I might not be entirely a man, because I don't really conform to what's expected of a man in terms of what I'm interested in, what I like, what I want from relationships, or hair length. I've been living how I want without much regard for gender norms for a while, but I don't really feel totally like a man so I think I may be non-binary.

 

In this way most people are non-binary. Few people completely conform to the masculine or feminine archetype.

[DaviM703]

@Blazkovitz I think that's true but I don't really identify that much with being a man either. I haven't changed my pronouns as of now but I basically don't identify with the binary system society has put in place and feel like I might rather just be free from it.

[BlueKumul]

In the future it's going to be less relevant anyway. Virtual realities will enable anyone to experience being the opposite sex including the sexual sensations. We are also going to have brain transplants, why would my next body be the same sex as the old one?

 

Identifying is another issue, you can have a penis but it doesn't have to belong to the core of your identity.

[Mark]

On 12/1/2019 at 1:06 PM, nonmerci said:

Sometimes I feel like there is more non-binary or trans people here, but maybe it's because I never met in real life (I think)? Sometimes I'm wondering if aromanticism or asexuality affect gender Identity.

It might be the other way around.

 

On 12/1/2019 at 1:06 PM, nonmerci said:

I Don't know, but I feel like some gender coded things are linked to seduction and gender-role in a couple Not everything, of course; but for instance, it seems for me that when it comes to clothes, a feminine style is often associated with seduction (like a boyfriend complaining because his girlfriend is not feminine enough, he thinks she doesn't seduce him without "feminine" clothes).

There is a lot of gender coding. With cis people typically unaware of it.

[DaviM703]

I've become pretty aware of that gender coding, partly from college classes, and I've realized that I don't identify with it. I've also taken multiple online tests that say I have a balanced or androgynous brain based on my style of forming friendships and ability to do well on various cognitive tests.

[chairdesklamp]

On 12/27/2019 at 2:39 PM, DavidMS703 said:

@Blazkovitz I think that's true but I don't really identify that much with being a man either. I haven't changed my pronouns as of now but I basically don't identify with the binary system society has put in place and feel like I might rather just be free from it.

The key isn't really what you like or want out of a relationship, or adherence to any other norm or behaviour, but exactly what you say here, that you don't identify with,I assume, your AGAB. That is really all not being cis is. The rest is varied by individual, and if anyone tells you "you must be this gender (non) conforming/dysphoric/etc to enter" that's just gatekeeping. 

I'm a man. My personality, behaviour, vibes, apparently, and interests and all that are all pretty neutral. But I don't connect with anything but male. It's kinda like how behaviour doesn't define orientation.

I can't speak to anything outside of the binary, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in and that I support you exploring gender to find what best fits you. However you choose to ID is up to you, but you're completely valid. 

[chairdesklamp]

Oh, @DavidMS703 I want to add a caveat to behaviour:

Association. 

Now things can have different associations for different people

For me, I'm fine writing English, but it's my least favourite language to speak because I've been under constant racist and xenophobic attack by its speakers since pretty much the moment I arrived here 26 years ago.

Japanese is my favourite because while, yes, I did get a hard time for being mixed because I was in a less diverse area (it would have been cool in the Toukyou-Yokohama area, but I was in Koube) the side of my family that lovingly raised me spoke it, and what I did get in Koube is *nothing* compared to racism here. Let's just say Japan never had any Jim Crow-like stuff. 

There's this mixed basketball player from Japan, recruited into the Wizards. For him, he feels closer with the non-Japanese part of his identity, so from what little public statements he makes, he relates better here. 

In other words, just like all trans people experience trans differently, all aro people experience being aro differently, etc., we experience anything in our own way. 

Having long hair used to be automatically feminine until the hippies. From then on, male hippies, rockers, etc. could be seen with long hair. 

HOWEVER, if it MEANS an expression of your non-maleness to you, that's quite possible and valid. 

Everything really is unnecessarily gendered. I read a gag post about how cisnormative people might gender different types of pasta, and it was spot on. 

However, if something makes you feel gender euphoria/like your actual gender (my term, real gender and AGAB are opposing in trans people) even if it's not intrinsically or even commonly a gendered thing, that's valid and a thing. 

[DeltaAro]

59 minutes ago, chairdesklamp said:

Having long hair used to be automatically feminine until the hippies. From then on, male hippies, rockers, etc. could be seen with long hair. 

It would be interesting if there was a culture where women had shorter hair than men. I vaguely remember that Spartan men had all long hair, but the married women had short hair.

[chairdesklamp]

@DeltaVHuh. Admittedly, since I'm guessing this is Europe before the 19th Century, that's waaaaay out of my range of knowledge. 

I can say in my old country, before about 1880, men often wore their hair tied up in a topknot. Americans, when they invaded in 1860-ish, and forced Japan to assimilate to America ways, had a huge thing of publically shaming men who didn't go along with it by cutting their hair off in some kind of public spectacle.

And then a few years ago, white yuppie men decided it was stylish to go around as yet another thing you were tormented for if you were Japanese at some point since the 1860s but apparently is good and pure for whites to do. And that is why anyone with a "man bun uwu" will only ever get contempt from me. I'm not the only Japanese person even in my immediate local area I know who feels this way. 

 

However, I didn't think to really mention it because it's not likely to be relevant to many others on here as far as traditional men's hair. And my only real Western knowledge is America, also late 19th century to present. 

Who is that guy by the way? Just can't place a name to the face. If you expected him to be known, I'll probably recognise the name. 

[DeltaAro]

11 hours ago, chairdesklamp said:

Who is that guy by the way? Just can't place a name to the face. If you expected him to be known, I'll probably recognise the name. 

Rene Descartes. A known from Ghost in the Shell, though Bato misrepresents him there.

11 hours ago, chairdesklamp said:

I can say in my old country, before about 1880, men often wore their hair tied up in a topknot. Americans, when they invaded in 1860-ish, and forced Japan to assimilate to America ways, had a huge thing of publically shaming men who didn't go along with it by cutting their hair off in some kind of public spectacle.

What's this hairstyle called? It's not a knot but a brush. No matter how much Sekiro gets pummeled in the game (the hardest I know), his haircut never takes damage. ?

[chairdesklamp]

On 7/11/2020 at 6:20 AM, DeltaV said:

Rene Descartes. A known from Ghost in the Shell, though Bato misrepresents him there.

What's this hairstyle called? It's not a knot but a brush. No matter how much Sekiro gets pummeled in the game (the hardest I know), his haircut never takes damage. ?

Uh, an attempt at a topknot but you actually cut your hair so it doesn't loop back through? JP animated media loves to do spiky hair. I wanna say it started with Toriyama's stuff, but was particularly popular to draw when and since short and spiky was a popular men's style in the '90s and into the early 2000s. Dragon Ball started in the 80s, but it was later on that suddenly everyone drew spiky hair. And there was both a real hairstyle and the fact I left Japan in the '90s, so I can't say what the bigger influence was. I dunno when your game's from but I heard of it for the first time last week from someone about 17 years old. They typically don't spend much time on media from before 2000.

That one's nothing, though, you should see this guy https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/RenjiAbaraiKubo.png 

Actor wearing the actual spiky 'do I was talking about (obviously the guy on the right, not the one with the receding hairline) ⬇️ 

I think that style was popular with teens here around the time, too. It took lots and lots of gel. You could almost cut your hand on your hair www

[aro_elise]

On 12/3/2019 at 3:18 AM, nonmerci said:

It's not something I ever think about it. Is doesn't care a cis thing, or are there cis that actually cares?

i suppose you could say i care, i mean i definitely identify as a woman.  i can't tell you what makes me feel that way, besides my biological sex and upbringing--i don't think my parents imposed too many gender norms on me (they didn't know until i was born, so my room and first clothes and toys were gender-neutral), and they let me pick pretty much everything as soon as i was able to.  i chose girly clothes, lip gloss, dance classes, books about fairies, dolls/fashion stuff (partly because i've always known i want to be a designer).  some gender-neutral stuff too, of course.  and obviously boys can dance and wear pink and all that, you know what i mean.  and now, even though the life i want could hardly be further from the kind of life women were supposed to want/have back in the day, that just means i'm not conforming to traditional gender roles, not that i'm not a woman.  

now, the purpose of the following exercise is actually to differentiate individualist cultures from collectivist, but i thought it would serve to illustrate my point about gender identity too.  the task is to complete the sentence "i am (a)..." with the first thing which comes to mind.  someone from a collectivist culture would most likely identify themselves in terms of a relation to someone else, ex. "i am the daughter/wife/mother of so-and-so," while someone from an individualist one (like mine, canada) would name their gender, occupation, nationality, main personality trait, etc.  when i did the exercise, the first thing which came to mind was "i am a woman."  so i think that proves not only that i view myself on an individual level (as expected) but that my gender is a prominent part of my identity.  *note: that doesn't mean it's the most important, just the most immediately obvious.*  actually, i have to wonder whether those of us in individualist cultures give more thought/value to our gender and orientations overall, like how familiar are collectivists with aromanticism?  well, that's a whole other thing.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Contrary to what is shown in movies made by the majority culture, chiefs were usually women.  After all, the oldest person in a village is expected to be the wisest, & women live longer than men...though pioneers often refused to talk to a Native woman (unless they wanted sex).  At a modern dance in a Native community you may see girls asking boys to dance rather than the other way around; that reflects a tradition where women were aggressive & men were the gatekeepers.  Pioneers were sometimes shocked to see women fistfighting; the sight of men in makeup was so offensive that they made up the term "war paint" to explain it.  Long hair for men is so important that court rulings have said that a Native Person can't be forced to cut his hair even in prison.  Language warning for this video:

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by 2 Spirit Cherokee Princess

[mewix]

I think everything is socially constructed to some extent. So I question how much any concept is valid. Even things like sexual orientation, things can be more fluid than you think however biology itself can be a limiting factor. Some wish to transcend it, or find that it comes with labels that does not define them whether it be societal or something else.  

At the end of the day I don't think, what gender I am is a useful question for me personally. It might feel like more of a question to those who are confused and feel in need of it. But I don't think it should define someone. At esence I don't think there is anything fundamentally male or female. Things are often a lot more fluid. But even just asking who am I is a hard question? When you strip away the actions that define you there is nothing left at the end of the day. 

Things like personality, how assertive/passive you are can get intertwined with such concepts too. And these concepts vary greatly by culture.

If stereotypes and social expectations were done away with, I think intersex people would have a lot less problems finding out what they are and intergrating in. Because we are individuals after all. I think we need to respond flexibly to peoples needs. As far as I know there is no other person exactly like me xP (or maybe I have a doppelganger somewhere hmm) 

Language is shaped and constructed too in that manner and dictates a lot of behavior. So looking deeply into discourses is important. People experience being different for many reasons and to see what is included and what isn't is important.

As for identities like non-binary I think they can be useful for those who feel like not quite right in their body but neither to maleness or femaleness or even a mix of both and to describe their experience.

However I think that it would be wrong to describe anyone as totally binary because our experiences are fluid not fixed to one point completely, like yin and yang. I don't think there is such thing as fully one thing. 

When we label ourselves I think it is best not to get too attached. That way you are free to define yourself open endedly and by your actions not by a predefined state. Words should not need to control you, words can help you perhaps but not dictate. It's like with people who label themselves with a group identity like a environmentalist, atheist etc. it's important not to get too attached and make that the defining factor. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by mewix