What even is gender?

[Pyr]

I'm not great at putting my thoughts into words, I hope this all makes sense to read! My wording also might not be perfect hhh

 

I've been thinking about this a lot too! Here are my thoughts on gender. Not sure if all of this is correct, but I'd like to know what you guys think! So here we go:

First of all, gender obviously isn't the body someone is born into; that's sex. 

Then, there are gender stereotypes/gender roles: women are expected to be soft, caring, pretty, etc., while on the other hand, men are expected to be aggressive, tough, and strategic. Women are supposed to modify their appearance and wear showy (and impractical) clothing to be attractive, while men are expected to look tough, with more simple, less revealing clothes.

But that's not gender either. Women can act and present masculine and vice versa. Many people (especially many trans people) bash these gender roles. So these ideas that only men have short hair, only women wear dresses and makeup, etc. don't define someone's gender. So, from this view, there isn't really difference between genders.

Another thing I've been considering is that in different parts of the world, gender roles were the same even though their culture developed completely differently. For example, around the world in ancient cultures, male people were often workers while female people raised their family and did less physical work. But this makes sense, because most men are physically stronger than women. 

I identify as a cis female but I have no idea why I do, and I'm really what's considered "feminine." I think I consider myself a girl because that's how I was raised, and that's what's most convenient for me. 

So, my point is: gender doesn't really exist

What do you all think? What's gender to you guys? And to the transgender people: How do you know you're transgender?

[piroshki101]

I 100% agree that gender doesn't really exist as it's a construct. And for me, before really knowing that I was trans, I first learned about the term non-binary. I'd also experienced dysphoria through puberty, but I didn't know what it was back then. When I was younger, I knew that I wasn't a boy or a girl, but I was scared to question, so I tried my best to perform as my assigned gender. I wasn't really happy, and a video taught me about the term non-binary and after my very long repressed feelings, I decided to face my fears and around that time I also realized "Hmm...wait a damn moment...if I don't vibe with my assigned gender, then...then I'm trans...holy shit!". So yeah the reason I know that I'm trans is really cause I don't vibe with my assigned gender, as it just never felt right.

[Collie]

Sooo. I recently began identifying as libragender/mostly agender. I believe that most people have this idea of "I'm an X" somewhere in their mind. Sometimes that idea doesn't align with your birth sex. I have some vague notion of being female, but 99% of the time I don't "feel" like anything gender-wise. My gender is a void with a teeny tiny nucleous of "girl" that I only rarely "feel".
It's not connected to being feminine or masculine for sure, since people can identify as a man and yet enjoy being feminine and someone can identify as a woman and yet enjoy being masculine, etc. But at the same time, being masculine or feminine can be affirming to someone's identity.

So yeah. I tend to think gender is just some weird designation in your mind.

[EGGHEAD]

when i say i'm a man i'm like "yep checks out"

 

that's about it for me

still very confusing though

[The Gray Warlock]

When I was growing up gender=sex. Then someone decided it was...something else. And not everyone agrees. All I will say is if a word is to have any meaning at all, it must have a consistent definition that everyone agrees upon.

[Procrastinating]

Gender is about how you feel in your body and how you picture yourself and how you wish to be perceived. 

 

[Holmbo]

I've also thought this. But I wonder: if gender is a social construct then what's the difference between being gender non conforming and being transgender?

[Acecream]

43 minutes ago, Holmbo said:

I've also thought this. But I wonder: if gender is a social construct then what's the difference between being gender non conforming and being transgender?

you can be gender non conforming and still identify with your assigned gender at birth

[Holmbo]

22 hours ago, Acecream said:

you can be gender non conforming and still identify with your assigned gender at birth

What does identifying with your gender mean if it was only a social construct? What does it mean to be a woman for example. We know it's not physical attributes and not which hormones we have. So is it personality, what makes us feel like a gender?

On 10/4/2022 at 6:12 AM, The Gray Warlock said:

All I will say is if a word is to have any meaning at all, it must have a consistent definition that everyone agrees upon.

I don't totally agree. Words meaning shift overtime and different words has different meaning depending on context and cultural differences.

[hemogoblin]

21 hours ago, Holmbo said:

What does identifying with your gender mean if it was only a social construct?

I could be misunderstanding, but what I get from your approach here is a common misunderstanding I see about what we mean by gender being a social construct. When we say gender is a social construct, we're not saying it's not real or that it's totally meaningless. We mean that it only exists within the understanding of a human-defined perspective. We mean that it exists and is real but is highly contextual (which is why different societies throughout history have defined the spectrum of gender differently, from having two-spirit to hijra to the eight genders defined in ancient Judaism). My favorite way to help illustrate this is the explanation of how vegetables are a social construct. Vegetables are a real, tangle, physical thing - but the things that make vegetables vegetables are a social construct. And I think this illustrates something else poignant: the world is way weirder and messier than the human brain likes to think in. There is no clear, objective distinction of what makes a vegetable a vegetable and not some other categorization, as displayed by the "category bending" vegetables like tomatoes.

Same with gender. There is no simple, easy, or concise standard or set of standards that defines or categorizes genders/what gender is.

I can't tell you what scientifically makes us feel a gender (neither can science yet), but I can tell you the annoying vague answer to what's the difference between being trans and gnc or what defines you as a woman: a person's feelings. Their feelings may be influenced by a variety of factors: anatomical, societal, personal, neurotypicality or neurodivergence, other. Their feelings may be a result of one, some, or all of these in various intensities/capacities. What makes someone gnc and cis versus gnc and trans or gender conforming and trans is just how that person feels and decides to label. There is no clearly defined line because human nature is as messy as the natural world is. Two people could describe very similar experiences and thoughts and each come to a different conclusion about what it means for their gender because feelings don't follow a basic mathematical equation with a correct or specific answer.

Edited January 15, 2023 by hemogoblin
forgot a word

[DeltaAro]

@hemogoblin

Yes, "vegetables" is an umbrella term, describing a group of human-edible plant parts. And this grouping is of no relevance in botany: An alien 👽 scientist studying Earth's flora would come up with a term like "fruit" but not "vegetable".

Vegetables = {tomatoes, carrots, spinach, onions, bell peppers, ...}

The elements of the grouping are quite scientifically precise, though: tomatoes are the fruits of dolanum lycopersicum, carrots are the roots of daucus carota, and so on.

Gender is not about plants, and instead about humans. But "gender" certainly does not describe a group of humans. Perhaps gender describes the set of all specific genders?

Gender = {women, men, enbies, ...}

So the specific genders refer to groups of people.

Now we notice two important differences to "vegetable":

1. A specific gender like "non-binary" is just as socially constructed as "gender" itself is. But what a tomato is, or a carrot, is not socially constructed!
2. We have no restrictions which groupings of people qualify as a gender. "Nerd" cannot be a gender. Why? But vegetables must at least be human-edible plant parts, not any plant parts. Cotton or oak wood is not a vegetable.

So I'd still agree with @Holmbo that gender kind of hangs in the air.

17 hours ago, hemogoblin said:

There is no clear, objective distinction of what makes a vegetable a vegetable and not some other categorization, as displayed by the "category bending" vegetables like tomatoes.

Same with gender. There is no simple, easy, or concise standard or set of standards that defines or categorizes genders/what gender is.

Let's make it complex, difficult and verbose!  😉

For now, genders describe groups of humans. Duh...

17 hours ago, hemogoblin said:

I can't tell you what scientifically makes us feel a gender (neither can science yet), but I can tell you the annoying vague answer to what's the difference between being trans and gnc or what defines you as a woman: a person's feelings.

I don't even think that's so vague. The real problem is that this isn't a general answer at all.

If someone feels their gender is "nerd", we would conclude that this person is very confused or trolling. Right?

"Nerd" is not even remotely contained in the concept of "gender". It's like calling cotton a vegetable - only that we have a good answer here: "Because it's not edible, stupid!"

[hemogoblin]

EDIT: You know what. Changed my mind.

Edited January 16, 2023 by hemogoblin
Not gonna engage on this.

[DeltaAro]

18 hours ago, hemogoblin said:

EDIT: You know what. Changed my mind.

Sorry if my last post upset you. I don't know why, I didn't invalidate anyone's gender identity or something like that.

The idea is pretty simple and should be uncontroversial:

We sometimes have...

1. one unified thing, that we understand well, but divide it in an arbitrary manner.
   Color (concept in sense physiology) => "Indigo", "azure" and "teal" (those are arbitrary, social things)
2. a multitude of things we understand well, but group them together in an arbitrary manner.
   Onions, carrots, spinach ... (botanically well-defined) => "vegetables" (arbitrary)

And gender is not like 1. or 2.. Instead the multitude of genders (male, female, nonbinary, ...) is as mysterious as the concept of gender in general.

So gender is something very subtle.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by DeltaAro

[DeltaAro]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:59 AM, Holmbo said:

What does identifying with your gender mean if it was only a social construct? What does it mean to be a woman for example. We know it's not physical attributes and not which hormones we have. So is it personality, what makes us feel like a gender?

I once thought, that gender is the subjective psychological relation or attitude towards masculinity or femininity. And from this the socially constructed gender identities arise.

But this doesn't work, because what does it then mean to not have a gender (agender)?

And not all genders relate to masculinity-femininity, but there are also atrinary genders and xenogenders that don't fit. Perhaps "gender" is simply undefinable and unanalyzable.

Some peculiar properties of gender:

• it is relatively fixed
• it is a part of people's identity
• it is very important for sexual and romantic attraction, less so for Platonic attraction
• single-gender spaces do not come naturally (if a family speaks Japanese, their child will speak Japanese. But gender isn't like language or culture, it's not "contagious")
• people with a certain gender tend to like having their gender expressed in language if we speak to them (pronouns)
• there are assumptions or stereotypes about genders, regarding appearance, behavior and personality
• nearly all genders are exclusive, you only can have one gender (maybe genderflux is the exception?)

[Collie]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:42 AM, Holmbo said:

I've also thought this. But I wonder: if gender is a social construct then what's the difference between being gender non conforming and being transgender?

Gender non conforming is basically just not living according to gender stereotypes, challenging said stereotypes. Anyone can be GNC, cis, nb, or trans. Someone who is trans identifies as a gender that is different than their birth sex and is typically working to transition to that gender visually.

Anyways, I'm back to identify as a cis woman.

[A_Mess]

Don't know if anyone is interested, but I actually made a zine about gender performativity in film back in 2021 for a class assignment. I focus heavily on the ideas of the gender theorist, Judith Butler. Her performativity theory probably isn't a definitive answer to the question of what gender is, but it might be good food for thought.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kH2Je-tpF-vbVihEak80e5TSteBhaAbp/view?usp=sharing

(I cite a lot of Butler's works if anyone wants to read them in more detail.)

[Holmbo]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:02 PM, DeltaAro said:

• it is very important for sexual and romantic attraction, less so for Platonic attraction

Is it though? I'd argue gender expression is what influences sexual and romantic attraction rather than the identity. Most peoples attraction doesn't change if they were to change pronouns.

[DeltaAro]

15 hours ago, Holmbo said:

Is it though? I'd argue gender expression is what influences sexual and romantic attraction rather than the identity. Most peoples attraction doesn't change if they were to change pronouns.

I had already commented on this, but deleted it since it became again rather convoluted.

You're right that the gender identity of someone doesn't have much if any impact on sexual or romantic attraction felt by others. But I also don't believe it's just "gender expression".

I would describe it as "externally imposed gender".

People are attracted to the persons they categorize as their preferred gender according to their own criteria. I guess, an average lesbian woman isn't likely to question her sexual orientation and change it to pansexual because she finds self-identified nonbinary Miley Cyrus attractive. Miley will instead be put in the "women" box.

But error of this categorization (wrong "imposed gender") can still happen. So it cannot be presentation alone. If an average straight man cluelessly looks at famous drag queen Courtney Act, who gives a very convincing femme presentation, and thinks "sexy..." the whole thing is going to unravel fast if that man "finds out". This knowledge would likely make sexual or romantic attraction mostly impossible.

I assume that it's impossible to create a theory of gender that allows full freedom, is not normative but still consistent. And we haven't even considered xenogenders...

So imho something should be said about the lack of consistency, seriously. Because it is not subtle, but very obvious and cannot be explained by social constructivism, vagueness of concepts or family resemblance. Since gender is an important source of happiness for many people, we might just accept the inconsistency, but it shouldn't be simply ignored.

Edited January 18, 2023 by DeltaAro

[Holmbo]

8 hours ago, DeltaAro said:

I would describe it as "externally imposed gender".

 

That's a good point. The interpretation is not the same as the expression.

But doesn't "imposed" give a very strong sense of deliberation though? It's not like our attraction is a choice. If I was a heterosexual woman I might be sexually attracted to another woman that had gender expression which I associate with a man. That doesn't mean I'm denying that she's a woman. It's just my bodies response.

If orientations are to have any meaning we also have to acknowledge that gender interpretation is different from gender identity. Or we should make new kinds of categories for attraction.

[AstrophelDragon]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:02 PM, DeltaAro said:

nearly all genders are exclusive, you only can have one gender (maybe genderflux is the exception?)

I'm the exception too.

But anyway being genderfluid I feel like could give me a unique perspective on this, but it's hard to explain. I feel my gender changing. Yesterday I woke up as mostly a boy, by the end of the day I was more neutral. Other days I'm a girl the whole day, or my gender disappears. Despite this, I don't know exactly what gender is. I just know that at different times identifying as different genders is what feels right (and like, sometimes there's dysphoria that will also tell me what's wrong). So gender is basically this internal sense that a person has (or maybe doesn't, ex. agender or genderless). And then it's reinforced and categorized by society. What causes it, I don't know, but it exists somewhere.

 

[hemogoblin]

18 hours ago, AstrophelDragon said:

I'm the exception too.

But anyway being genderfluid I feel like could give me a unique perspective on this, but it's hard to explain. I feel my gender changing. Yesterday I woke up as mostly a boy, by the end of the day I was more neutral. Other days I'm a girl the whole day, or my gender disappears. Despite this, I don't know exactly what gender is. I just know that at different times identifying as different genders is what feels right (and like, sometimes there's dysphoria that will also tell me what's wrong). So gender is basically this internal sense that a person has (or maybe doesn't, ex. agender or genderless). And then it's reinforced and categorized by society. What causes it, I don't know, but it exists somewhere.

 

Me as well. I wouldn't describe myself as having one gender or multiple genders or even no gender. I have...gender. I have an...expanse that is (probably) gender. It just kind of...is. It's not any one specific or pinpointable gender. It's *vague gesturing and shrugging*.

There's also demigender, nan0gender, bigender, trigender, omnigender, and all the micro-expressions of partial genders, multi genders, fluid genders, and flux genders (demifluid, fluidflux, agenderflux, etc., etc., etc.).

From a nonbinary point of view, I don't understand the point of restricting gender as something rigid or specific or making a list of things gender for some reason can't be (nerdgender/nerd as gender sounds effing awesome to me). There are some who define nonbinary as "opting out of the gender system" as in "the way we view and define gender is BS and I don't prescribe to it" (although personally, that's why I also identify as genderqueer). I love that, coming at this from an outside of the binary perspective, I'm able to view gender as weird, wonky, and limitless. There are not certain things it has to be. There are not certain things it can't be. It's whatever someone's personal feelings are, whether that does happen to be a binary gender or a gender out of the binary or multiple genders or fluid genders or indescribable gender(s) or poetic gender(s) or whatever. I believe everyone deserves that freedom and should be respected for it.

Edited January 21, 2023 by hemogoblin

[DeltaAro]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:38 AM, Holmbo said:

That's a good point. The interpretation is not the same as the expression.

But doesn't "imposed" give a very strong sense of deliberation though?

Maybe "attached"?

"Assumed" would be wrong, because that's just the state of lacking information, which you could get by asking the individual.

On 1/19/2023 at 7:38 AM, Holmbo said:

It's not like our attraction is a choice. If I was a heterosexual woman I might be sexually attracted to another woman that had gender expression which I associate with a man. That doesn't mean I'm denying that she's a woman. It's just my bodies response.

IMHO, it is your mind reacting here, not the body. Like grief and anger have physical signs, but they're mainly part of our mental life and not a simple bodily reflex.

Otherwise, I agree that sexual attraction is largely involuntarily...

Warning: mention of transphobic slurs, violence

Spoiler

... but sometimes knowledge still has an effect. Regarding your example: If a woman identifies as heterosexual and acquires knowledge about the other person not fitting her classification of "man," because he doesn't have the "right" set of genitals, her desire may dissipate.

This is where the notion of "trap" comes from (tough we think of a straight cis man and a trans woman in this case): being "tricked" about someone's gender.

And it doesn't stop with the slur. See "trans panic" defense. This is of course as horrible and unbelievable as it gets.

It's never used when some other random subjectively unappealing feature was hidden and later revealed - which would be just: "Sad day for you".

On 1/19/2023 at 7:38 AM, Holmbo said:

If orientations are to have any meaning we also have to acknowledge that gender interpretation is different from gender identity. Or we should make new kinds of categories for attraction.

Now as it is, the conflict is inevitable. What has to yield: sexual and romantic orientation or gender identity? What deserves more respect?

I don't think that's a purely academic question.

On 1/20/2023 at 12:38 PM, AstrophelDragon said:

I'm the exception too.

But anyway being genderfluid I feel like could give me a unique perspective on this, but it's hard to explain. I feel my gender changing. Yesterday I woke up as mostly a boy, by the end of the day I was more neutral. Other days I'm a girl the whole day, or my gender disappears. Despite this, I don't know exactly what gender is. I just know that at different times identifying as different genders is what feels right (and like, sometimes there's dysphoria that will also tell me what's wrong). So gender is basically this internal sense that a person has (or maybe doesn't, ex. agender or genderless). And then it's reinforced and categorized by society. What causes it, I don't know, but it exists somewhere.

While I knew that there is genderflux or genderfluid, I thought that maybe genderflux was itself a gender.

So "genderflux" is instead used for the state of oscillating between different genders, and not necessarily between female and male.

14 hours ago, hemogoblin said:

From a nonbinary point of view, I don't understand the point of restricting gender as something rigid or specific

What I wrote was meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive. Just trying to find out, what gender means.

Social construction, vagueness or family resemblance are often cited, but AFAIK those approaches do not mean "anything goes":

• E.g. money is socially constructed, but whatever money is (dollar bills, gold coins, arrow heads, seashells, ...) it must be fungible. It cannot be anything.
• Vagueness... the paradox of the heap... nobody can determine the number of how many grains a heap of sand must have. But ten grains are still not enough.
• Take Wittgenstein's example of games: yes there is no "essence of games", but that doesn't make the term "game" meaningless.
  We could at least make a list like this: can be joined freely, has fixed rules, consequences are negotiable, participants make an effort, outcome is undetermined, some outcomes are praised as wins.
  A game doesn't need to fulfill all of these criteria, but most.

We can say that gender just means an inner sense or psychological state. Then gender becomes quite empty. Like a white canvas on which everyone can "paint" their own ideas of gender.

I'm not convinced that emptying a concept so radically of meaning is always liberating. If we take Wittgenstein's example again, in the dystopian world of the Hunger Games, I'd actually like to say "The Hunger Games are not games but bloody murder" and be understood.

Sure, games are just objects and not humans, so that may be the important difference.

14 hours ago, hemogoblin said:

nerdgender/nerd as gender sounds effing awesome to me

I couldn't care less if people identify as nerdgender. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want or need a gender.

I just thought that such genders wouldn't actually be used.

The reasoning was: there are xenogenders, like catgender or robogender, because people cannot describe their experience in a human-gendered way. Nerdgender isn't on the male-female-neutral-triangle, but contrary to a xenogender you use a human category to describe it.

14 hours ago, hemogoblin said:

I love that, coming at this from an outside of the binary perspective, I'm able to view gender as weird, wonky, and limitless. There are not certain things it has to be. There are not certain things it can't be. It's whatever someone's personal feelings are, whether that does happen to be a binary gender or a gender out of the binary or multiple genders or fluid genders or indescribable gender(s) or poetic gender(s) or whatever. I believe everyone deserves that freedom and should be respected for it.

Ok, that's clear then, "anything goes".

Edited January 21, 2023 by DeltaAro

[AstrophelDragon]

10 hours ago, DeltaAro said:

So "genderflux" is instead used for the state of oscillating between different genders, and not necessarily between female and male.

Genderflux is when you're association with gender itself oscillates. Like, sometimes you might not have a gender, while other times your gender might be very strong, and stages in between, whereas genderfluid is your gender changes (not necessarily between female and male, although that's how most people think of it)

[nonmerci]

I think gender is something that trans people are a lot more likely to feel due to the fact that they feel a disconnect between their gender and how people perceive their gender. I actually think it exists, though not everyone needs or uses the concept to define themselves.

I also want to point out that though gender can be seen as a social construct, it is the case of basically everything, as all the categories we made are socially constructed. Colors are a good example of this : we distinguised blue, green, purple, etc, but that's just how we did it, it coulx have been another way (and it was, in different cultures or on history). However, I'm sure that no one will argue that everything is in reality colorless and that what we see is not real. That's the same with gender. The categories may be the product of our society but it can still be meaningful for some people and therefore, it exists.