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Pulse Shooting


morallygayro
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I think we need to get some feelings about this out there.

 

Also, since the shooting wasn'tabout aromanticism or asexuality, I want to make a rule. If you're cis and not attracted to your same gender and/or multiple genders, think long and hard before you comment. This isn't about you.

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I value the opinions of cishets as much as anybody else. I advise everyone to be cautious about what they post.

 

The fatality count is currently at 49 (possibly more, I can't get a clear number from CNN or BBC but they have released 48 of their names now). Over 50 others wounded. It's the worst mass shooting of in recent American history (might have been more before we were all civilized). It's very tragic, and I feel sorry for the victims of the shooting and their families.

 

Honestly, I don't feel any more or less sad that the shooting was specifically in a gay bar, versus somewhere else like a mall or a college campus. If he hadn't targeted Pulse specifically for being a gay bar, he would have done this at another bar instead and it would have been just as tragic.

 

I don't know what would drive somebody to do such a thing. How can we fix a sickness so deep? There's been a lot of ruckus about gun control. I'm still ambivalent about that. The real solution would be identifying folks like this gunman before they do something like this, and give them the help they need. But, until we get a set of precogs, I'm not sure how to go about that.

 

I also feel powerless, paralyzed. What can I do to help? Are there people like the gunman that I come into contact with that just need a ray of light in their lives to turn everything around? I kind of doubt it, but I'll keep on shining in case it helps. I cant rewind time and stop all those bullets, or convince the gunman to change his mind. If a charity pops up, I can donate, but that doesn't unkill the victims. :(

 

EDIT: There already are charities. http://time.com/money/4365694/orlando-pulse-nightclub-shooting-how-to-help/

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I don't really feel like I have much else to say. It's horrible and, as said above, I'm also feeling really paralysed. Can't imagine what people of Orlando are going through right now.

I am pretty annoyed at some of the media's coverage and how they are bringing up the gunman's religion but not focusing much on homophobia... but that's no surprise. The hate towards Muslim LGBT people at the moment...

 

Also, this really hit hard. Something I didn't even think about.

Spoiler

l3GEItS.jpg

 

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@Blue Phoenix Ace this was a hate crime in one of the most popular (and predominantly Latinx) LGBT clubs in Orlando, during Pride Month, on a night when the club was packed because of Latin Night. This isn't about "everyone". We don't have to value everyone's opinions equally.

 

This thread was created as a space for LGBT people, especially Latinx and Muslim LGBT people, to grieve and share feelings about violence against our community.

 

LGBT. As in, attracted to your same gender, attracted to multiple genders, or not identifying strictly with the sex you were assigned at birth.

 

That doesn't seem to be a description that includes you, based on your profile, so can you just not derail this thread?

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I'm not derailing the thread. I offered my opinion about the shootings. I'm also making it a space welcome for everyone, because their opinions matter too and you can't stop them from posting here anyway. If you want a private discussion among only LGBT people, then go find some and create a space only for you.

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@morallygayro I know this particularly touching LGBT people and I know my point of view is very different, I will try to be very careful about what I write. But I really feel the need to say this as a human being...
Firstly, I am terribly sorry for every member of the LGBT community. Hate crimes are a true calamity.
 Secondly, the only fact of being aware that such an tragedy occurred in the world we live in, in which we do our best to be good to each other and to build a better place, is truly devastating, because it sends a message of "no matter how hard you try, there will always be these beings (I refuse to call this a person) that will put to trash everything you stand for". As someone who was raised by xenophobic parents, I always tried to explain them that all humans should work in a common goal, regardless of gender identity, religion, orientations, etc. I always did the same whenever a friend would express non-justified hate. And for a couple of months, I had actually begun to think that things were getting a little better! But when I learned about the massacre, it was as if all my efforts, and all those of every other individuals who try to make a change around them, were blown away. And that, on a moral level, is impossible to accept.

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2 hours ago, Blue Phoenix Ace said:

I'm not derailing the thread. I offered my opinion about the shootings. I'm also making it a space welcome for everyone, because their opinions matter too and you can't stop them from posting here anyway. If you want a private discussion among only LGBT people, then go find some and create a space only for you.

 

I have little time for arophobia (even when it's not pointed at me). The likes of acephobia and heterophobia I find repulsive.

 

United we STAND, divided we FALL. Are we all the same: no, should it matter: HELL NO!

 

TBH I'm not sure I want much part with any LGBT "community" which treats such a tragedy as an excuse to push questionable political ideas. Ones potentially just as toxic as those of "Christian" homophobes or Daesh.

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@Mark I do understand the concern with bringing politics into this, I think it's completely reasonable why they do. 

For many LGBT people, so much of their lives have been shaped by politics. Their jobs, their basic rights, marriage, which bathroom they use... After all that I don't think we can blame them for bringing politics into this. 

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I think any attack is horrible and disgusting, no matter who is hurt or where it is, and yes Florida is a place with questionable laws and people but my heart and best wishes go out to anyone affected. Yes it was in a gay bar so this is a concern for the LGBT community and my best wishes also go out to the community and awareness and safety for all LGBT people. A shooting elsewhere would not be less devastating but this one asks those important questions about LGBT safety. Muslims also should not be defined but a few extremists just like how Christians should not be defined by the IRA (who were Catholic) or the Serbian army (who are Orthodox). Finally, if we stop making jokes or bringing LGBT into discussion or just doing as we normally would, the gunman wins. Youtuber GradeAUnderA made a video about loving gays just before the shooting and he still uploaded it with a disclaimer because he wasn't going to let one sick bastard stop him from spreading humour that mocks anti-gay arguments so good on him.

Aromantics and Asexuals ARE LGBT and are a part of the community because otherwise we'd be straight, and we're not straight. We don't need a different 'qualifier' to be LGBT if we're already aro or ace.

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It is an LGBT, not directly an LGBT+ issue though and it IS a political one. I'm not american, but I usually try to keep myself globally up to date... specially with the election going on, that worries me, even though it doesn't directly concern me (yet). Right now, as an outsider, it seems that america is pretty much divided down the middle between extremely liberal people and extremely conservative ones. And it seems that for every step, taken in the right direction (gay marriage), there's more fear and hate specifically directed in a xenophobic way, from the other side. This was a hate-crime. The shooting in a black church was a hate crime. The way muslims and mexicans are treated is done out of this misdirected hate and fear. 

 

Maybe I'm reading to much into it, but I doubt he'd just have "settled" for a college campus. I doubt the Church shooter would have just gone to the next super market. Sure, every shooting at a random location would have been tragic, but from my point of view, this is not what's happening here. This is directed hate towards very specific groups of people, resulting in mass murders. It's sickening... And the fact that this is erased by calling it "tragic no matter where it happened" might be overlooking why it happened and what we could do to prevent this in the future (not that I'm to hopeful on that front.)

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Its very hard to find the words to talk about this. Its a very complex issue, with lots of different aspects.

I think as long as you don't try silence others, everyone's voice should be welcomed.

 

The thing is with hate crime, its unpredictable. One hateful person is enough, no matter where you are, and if they don't have a gun, they may have something else. You just don't know. Yes, gun control is part of the issue, but usually there are multiple factors. 

Although I am  attracted to the same(ish) gender, but I'm still not sure if I have the right to talk about this in detail.

I'm well aware that some groups have it a lot worse than the ones I'm part of do. I don't think  will ever fully understand the kind of terror twoc are put through daily, but I think in these cases it would be crucial to let people talk, to use my voice to amplify their not to talk over them.

But also, sometimes its just too much. I think its important to realize that the closer people are to these tragedies, the harder it is for them to talk about these issues especially in times of distress. I personally don't feel like I'm able to look at this and keep a cool head, so I'd rather not address that part. 

And I also do not blame other people who might be affected, but decide avoid the subject completely and indulge in distractions.

 

What I'm sure about is that living in fear is not a life.

I grew up seeing cordons around pride marches to keep queers and  the lynch mob in a safer distance from each other, and I did learn to look behind my back every time I'm entering or exiting a queer space. No matter where I go, where I live, I will have that fear to live with.

As result of this attack, LGBTQ people will feel insecure to enter safe spaces, and they will fear to seek out communities.

This should be a time to spread positivity and be as kind as we can, because that is what's needed right now. People need to feel secure, they need to feel welcome, accepted and we have to show them hope, courage and be willing to listen.

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12 hours ago, Blue Phoenix Ace said:

 go find some and create a space only for you.

@Blue Phoenix Ace why do you think I made this thread?

7 hours ago, Louis Hypo said:

 Aromantics and Asexuals ARE LGBT and are a part of the community because otherwise we'd be straight, and we're not straight. We don't need a different 'qualifier' to be LGBT if we're already aro or ace.

Are you just going to conveniently ignore the fact that I'm both aro AND LGBT, and I'm telling you you're wrong and am disgusted with your entitlement to my community, especially so recently after we just lost dozens of siblings?

 

Also aros and aces CAN be straight, just like aros and aces CAN be gay or bi or pan. If any aros and aces were killed at Pulse, they were not killed for being aro or ace. They were killed because they were gay or bi or trans or pan or nonbinary, as well as because they were predominantly black and/or Latinx. SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT ABOUT YOU.

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Now, can LGBT people, who are attracted to their same gender, to multiple genders, or don't identify with the sex they were assigned at birth, just talk about the shooting, how they were affected, and how they're dealing with the aftermath?

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20 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

@Blue Phoenix Ace why do you think I made this thread?

This forum is accessible by everyone and, obviously, almost entirely aro people. This thread is open for everyone to discuss, regardless of other identities. If you are looking for a place in which only LGBT people can respond, this probably isn't it. Naturally they may have more to say on it, but considering this is international news, lots of people are here to discuss it.

Whilst this is a sensitive topic, I'd ask people to be open to everyone's views.

 

Quote

 

Are you just going to conveniently ignore the fact that I'm both aro AND LGBT, and I'm telling you you're wrong and am disgusted with your entitlement to my community, especially so recently after we just lost dozens of siblings?

 

Also aros and aces CAN be straight, just like aros and aces CAN be gay or bi or pan. If any aros and aces were killed at Pulse, they were not killed for being aro or ace. They were killed because they were gay or bi or trans or pan or nonbinary, as well as because they were predominantly black and/or Latinx. SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT ABOUT YOU.

 

I'd ask if we could try not to derail this thread into a discussion of who's LGBT and who's straight etc.. I would normally recommend making another thread for this but considering how that went last time, it'd probably end up being locked also. So, it might just be best to avoid the topic altogether.

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I'm concerned about the inevitable rise in the already prevalent Islamophobia and the shifting of blame onto them, while plenty of (presumably white Christian) people are saying "at least it was just a bunch of sinners".

 

I'm concerned about the effect it will have on other gay bars, pride, and the like. Are we going to see a decline in LGBT+ folk feeling safe in large numbers? Who is going to gather when the idea that someone is capable of coming to shoot them for their sexuality/gender/etc is so fresh and obvious? We need to stand strong, but it's scary.

 

It's also come about recently that the shooter frequented the nightclub himself, and could well have been a horrendously drastic case of the most homophobic people being likely to have some same-sex attraction themselves (there is documented science behind this one) and not being able to come to terms with it rationally.

 

Mainly HOW LONG IS IT GOING TO TAKE FOR AMERICA TO SORT OUT THEIR GUN PROBLEMS, GOOD GOD

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1 hour ago, Simowl said:

This forum is accessible by everyone and, obviously, almost entirely aro people. This thread is open for everyone to discuss, regardless of other identities. If you are looking for a place in which only LGBT people can respond, this probably isn't it. Naturally they may have more to say on it, but considering this is international news, lots of people are here to discuss it.

Whilst this is a sensitive topic, I'd ask people to be open to everyone's views.

LGBT and aro aren't mutually exclusive identities and I have no obligation to be open to "everyone's" views because the Pulse shooting wasn't about "everyone", it was about LGBT people, especially LGBT PoC. So as far as this shooting or any act of violence against LGBT people is concerned, I only care about LGBT people's views.

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28 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

LGBT and aro aren't mutually exclusive identities and I have no obligation to be open to "everyone's" views because the Pulse shooting wasn't about "everyone", it was about LGBT people, especially LGBT PoC. So as far as this shooting or any act of violence against LGBT people is concerned, I only care about LGBT people's views.

You are free to ignore their posts, just as they are also free to post here. You may not agree or care about their views, but they are not derailing the thread by posting here.

I don't really want this to derail the thread, so if you have any more concerns or issues with this, I'd recommend PM'ing me or any other mod.

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I'm getting real sick and tired of people turning this catastrophe into another excuse to bring up the ace/aro discourse.

 

Everywhere I look there's just hate. When people aren't wrongly hating on Islam, they're hating on aros and aces and pushing them even further out than they already were. If there's one person you should feel hate towards, it's the shooter, not people who had NOTHING to do with the shooting.

 

Now this forum is made for aros of all sexual orientations and gender identities and you have absolutely no right to tell who can participate in this thread and who can't, and if you're not happy with this, the door's right there.

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6 hours ago, Simowl said:

I'd ask if we could try not to derail this thread into a discussion of who's LGBT and who's straight etc.. I would normally recommend making another thread for this but considering how that went last time, it'd probably end up being locked also. So, it might just be best to avoid the topic altogether.

^^ Going to echo this. This is a thread for mourning, not for debate. This is an LGBT+ issue, a racial issue, a floridian issue. This is a hate crime. I would appreciate if nobody tried to make this into something that affects everyone equally, because it doesn't. However, I do believe that we should let everyone talk and share their opinions, because everyone who is grieving in the wake of this has something to say. If you disagree with someone, add them to your "ignored users" list. Don't turn grief into discourse. I don't want this thread locked or derailed. This topic should be a place where we put aside our beliefs, to stand in solidarity with one another, and to mourn the dead. Please, if you want to argue about this, bring it to PM, or another thread.

 

 

Most of my feelings right now are those of a queer Floridian (to those of you who saw my post in the other thread regarding my feelings on "queer"--I have made the decision, in the wake of this tragedy, to reclaim that word). I had to make sure, the day after the shooting, that all of my friends were safe, thanking god that none of them were in Orlando when it happened, that they were all safe (one had been in Orlando earlier that day, another the day before; one had plans to go on Monday that were spontaneously canceled due to the shooting). I'm too young to give blood, but most of my friends and family were out on Sunday, waiting in lines to give blood. There were hundreds of people in the lines--hundreds of people who wanted us to live--but all it took was just one person who wanted us to die to undo all of that by killing 49 and injuring 53. When I turned on the news, there were places that I knew. International news, showing places that I could walk to, or places near my dad's work, places that my friends and family had been near just moments earlier. One of my dad's friends had known the shooter in high school. Last night, I went to a vigil. It was the first community event I had gone to; I was hoping to go to my first Pride this year. I cried a lot. They had so many people speaking; an 82-year-old lesbian who had been at stonewall who had been with her wife for 42 years, a middle-aged activist who shouted on stage about how angry he was after a day of going on news shows and having to reasonably defend the viewpoint that he deserved to live, a rabbi who gave a speech about how nobody should use religion as a tool of hate. One person talked about how far we've come, because when this used to happen, nobody would claim the bodies, but this week, everyone has been trying, searching, making sure everyone they know is okay. Three people sang. They had a memorial set up, with the pictures of the ones who have been identified. A little girl--maybe around 6--had drawn a picture of a rainbow, and beneath it she wrote "LOve", and she put it with the photographs on the memorial. Others brought candles and flowers. One woman went around, asking everyone who was crying if they wanted a hug. They read the names of the dead that were known at the time; the vigil ended with the words "this is an incomplete list" and a moment of silence for those we have lost.

 

49 people died, but there will be a larger death count. How many children, seeing this, will think to themselves that it doesn't get better? How many people will be too afraid to enter safe spaces, or come out? How many people will be driven into silence? How many people will be inspired by the shooter and commit their own acts of hate? How many muslims will be hated and abused? How many politicians, tweeting their #ThoughtsAndPrayers, will support homophobia and block gun control? How long will this be affecting us, and how many more will die, before we are safe?

 

I'm just trying to remember that there were hundreds standing in line at the blood bank, or at the vigil, trying to save and honor the victims, and there was only one who was killing us. Humanity is not defined by one person; it is defined by many. There is hate and fear, yes, but there is still hope and love and solidarity and joy and courage.

 

To everyone: stay strong. be brave. i love you. don't forget them.

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I honestly feel like I'm the odd one out here. When the shooting happened, I was like, "...Oh, again." Not "why can't people respect my right to exist as LGBT." Because...I think somewhere along the line, as a coping mechanism to the violence that LGBT+ people face, I decided to expect violence. I decided that most people will never respect who I am, that society thinks I was asking for every verbal and physical bullet coming towards me, and that violence against me will not go away within my lifetime (if ever). I have been desensitized to LGBT+ violence to the point where I can no longer feel anything when one or one hundred of my siblings fall. And all I can say is, no one should ever reach that point. 

 

 

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Here's a thought, in Britain the main Brexit argument is to stop immigration and that will solve everything. It's not true, investment in public services, having contracts for only affordable housing and keeping jobs that rely on the EU or EU trading would help (in my opinion this is just an anecdote).

In America Trump is blaming Mexicans and Muslims because (like EU immigration) it's easy to hate and boosts his image without having to make sense (like most Brexit claims). Sadly this attack "justifies" some of that hate even though there are plenty of white Christian folk who hate LGBT. Maybe a better end to violence is gun control similar to that of European nations (and if you've seen Hot Fuzz they make jokes about how non-existent guns are if you're not a farmer) but that's only my opinion. Don't hate Islam for one unholy member and if guns weren't commonplace no one would have to defend them self.

I don't want to argue on this thread but if you're not cisgender or heterosexual or heteroromantic that is LGBT, and I don't tick 2 of those boxes.

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