Being aroace in asexual-oriented spaces

[Neon]

I've seen it time and again how when discussing asexuality in a vacuum, alloromantic asexual people feel the constant need to clarify that they are not aromantic and still feel romantic love. And while I don't think that's inherently bad, it often comes across more as separating aroaces than it does ensuring that asexuality and aromanticism aren't conflated.

I've felt at times that the alloace community doesn't really regard aroaces as a part of it. The phrase "ace people still feel (romantic) love" and variations of it is treated by the alloace community as the most important thing to know about asexuality, and a given for all ace people.

Which implies that aroaces aren't really a part of ace spaces. That we are less important, or even a threat to the "real" aces.

And while the aroallo community also emphasizes that they are not asexual, the rhetoric is totally different. It focuses more on how aroallo people aren't talked about enough, and how not all aros are ace. Aroace's existence isn't treated as inconvenient or ignored like we often are in ace spaces.

And I also want to recognize this isn't just an aroace thing. Aroallos and non-sam aros are also harmed by a lot of those implications.

At this point though, I have to wonder if it's just me reading into things that aren't there. I've never really put words to these ideas before, and I haven't seen others do so either. So I'd really, really appreciate other people's thoughts on this.

[Acecream]

8 hours ago, Neon said:

e: so my quote didn’t work I wanted to quote this:

“And while the aroallo community also emphasizes that they are not asexual, the rhetoric is totally different. It focuses more on how aroallo people aren't talked about enough, and how not all aros are ace. Aroace's existence isn't treated as inconvenient or ignored like we often are in ace spaces.”
 

 

That’s so much true!!!
 

 

That’s why I feel so much more comfortable in the aro communities and also with saying “I ’m aro” instead of “I’m ace” and much more connected to alloaros than to alloaces

anyway, alloaros are so cool!

Edited June 23, 2022 by Acecream

[Nix]

9 hours ago, Neon said:

The phrase "ace people still feel (romantic) love" and variations of it is treated by the alloace community as the most important thing to know about asexuality, and a given for all ace people.

This is why I never felt at home at AVEN, and why I never made an account there. That phrase is so dismissive and hurtful to aro people. I’ve never understood why marginalized groups feel the need to shove other marginalized people under the bus. Acceptance of ‘the other’ is so important (and not just for aro people)…

[nonmerci]

Yes. That's one of the reasons why I like aro spaces better.

There's also things like "A is for asexual" (thanks but what about us ?) and that doesn't come about aces necessarily but sometimes I saw things like "I've never seen this word or concept outside of the ace community, only aces use it", but aros do to. And the fact that aspec is used as a synonym of acespec, though I think it is supposed to mean all people with an A identity.

It is not a lot, but when you add all of this, it makes me feel invisible as an aro.

Edited March 19, 2023 by nonmerci

[dewy]

I'm not a big fan of the "but we can still love" rhetoric in the aspec community. Makes it seem like you need to "love", yknow? I think it's important to clarify that not all asexual people are aromantic, and vice versa but using that kind of wording/rhetoric... isn't the best way to get that point across. I hope this makes sense, I'm quite tired right now 😅

[nonmerci]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:02 PM, dewy said:

I'm not a big fan of the "but we can still love" rhetoric in the aspec community. Makes it seem like you need to "love", yknow? I think it's important to clarify that not all asexual people are aromantic, and vice versa but using that kind of wording/rhetoric... isn't the best way to get that point across. I hope this makes sense, I'm quite tired right now 😅

Yeah I think that's a difference between aro and aces.

With aces the rhetoric is : "we can still love" I don't see it much on the ace forums I visited (I may be lucky), but I see it a lot in places like youtube everytime there is a video on aces (for instance it was a big thing when it comes to Jughead Jones)

With aros it is : "we can be aromantic but not asexual" 

It is not a lot but the wording is important. One makes it sound like being aro is bad, the other doesn't sound like being ace is bad.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by nonmerci

[SilenceRadio]

There was a whole discussion regarding the ace/aro distinction in the comment section of this post. Aroaces feeling like a misrepresentation of aces or aros is a long-running issue.

[Acecream]

oh, what just came in my mind; i've seen a lot of alloaces saying they'd wish they were aroace instead of alloace.

i f**king hate this. they have no clue what it means to be aromantic and they just think it's an easy way to go lol

[Deltalorian]

Yeah, I think the best way I can describe it is that I feel asexual, but I don't feel ace, you know? Probably not, but it's the best way I can describe the feeling for me.

[A User]

i personally feel like i fit in with both aro and ace places, kinda like a VIP pass to enter (tho ofc i'm not sayin that people should gatekeep, tryin to give examples here)

i picture the "aces can feel love" and other variations of it as love in general. platonic love, alterous, etc.

i do prefer if the communities were aroace in specific (slightly better relatability) but im ok with aro communities

[Ace_of_Spades]

Feeling uncomfortable as an aroace in asexual spaces the precise reason that I decided to come to Arocalypse and left AVEN years ago. My orientation is not split in any way - I don't feel any attraction to boys, girls, or any other gender. I don't use the split attraction model for myself personally. However, it seems like most people on the asexual forums nowadays identify as asexual based on some form of split attraction, which I can't relate to.

I do find it odd that the "aromantic asexual" seem to get the shaft in ace spaces. Even mainstream media nowadays misrepresents asexuality as "attraction to a gender without desire for sex" with total disregard of asexuality as an orientation (or absence thereof) or aromantic asexuals that don't experience attraction to a gender at all. Most of the world's general population (regardless of orientation) doesn't experience a split orientation - it doesn't make sense for ace spaces to disregard, hide, or shame non-split asexuality.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Ace_of_Spades
Technicality clarification

[Neon]

2 hours ago, Ace_of_Spades said:

Feeling uncomfortable as an aroace in asexual spaces the precise reason that I decided to come to Arocalypse and left AVEN years ago.

Same. I technically still have an account there, but haven't used it in 2 years. There were other reasons (like the main people on there being allos who constantly invalidated people), but that was a big one.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

I made my AVEN account about 2-1/2 years ago, & it was terrible then.  Some members got away with being toxic, even racist, supported by certain staff members.  I got warnings against me for being an uppity minority who dared to speak up about it.

Finally, some people from the Board of Directors gave up the hands-off policy they once had, & said that the site needed changes before everybody abandons it.  Certain staff members with guilty consciences resigned after that, & bans or other restrictions have been issued to AVEN members who seemed to be here just to cause trouble.

How much has AVEN changed?  Well, I am no longer someone who gets unearned warnings from moderators; I am a mod now.  And I'm not planning to let bigots, fascists or trolls get away with much under my watch.

[Ammy]

3 hours ago, Alaska Native Manitou said:

I made my AVEN account about 2-1/2 years ago, & it was terrible then.  Some members got away with being toxic, even racist, supported by certain staff members.  I got warnings against me for being an uppity minority who dared to speak up about it.

Finally, some people from the Board of Directors gave up the hands-off policy they once had, & said that the site needed changes before everybody abandons it.  Certain staff members with guilty consciences resigned after that, & bans or other restrictions have been issued to AVEN members who seemed to be here just to cause trouble.

How much has AVEN changed?  Well, I am no longer someone who gets unearned warnings from moderators; I am a mod now.  And I'm not planning to let bigots, fascists or trolls get away with much under my watch.

It honestly bothers me a lot that there are certain moderators on there who see nothing wrong with the idea of fascists being there as long as they dont say anything about it. Like, sure, the admins spoke up against it, but the fact that people who are okay with the idea of fascists being there are allowed to be moderators is completely bonkers.

[SkyTuneRein]

3 hours ago, Alaska Native Manitou said:

I made my AVEN account about 2-1/2 years ago, & it was terrible then.  Some members got away with being toxic, even racist, supported by certain staff members.  I got warnings against me for being an uppity minority who dared to speak up about it.

Finally, some people from the Board of Directors gave up the hands-off policy they once had, & said that the site needed changes before everybody abandons it.  Certain staff members with guilty consciences resigned after that, & bans or other restrictions have been issued to AVEN members who seemed to be here just to cause trouble.

How much has AVEN changed?  Well, I am no longer someone who gets unearned warnings from moderators; I am a mod now.  And I'm not planning to let bigots, fascists or trolls get away with much under my watch.

That does sound a wee more enticing to return to. Alas, my warning wasn't entirely undeserved, something of which I can't really disagree with, even if excessive and missing the joke or the point of most of the posts. I would've done better if I had gotten a nudge ASAP, but I guess at least somebody on the team at the time didn't like me. I don't like it when people don't like me and don't tell me. 😾 And by "somebody", it's probably the majority. But what really set me off ultimately, many months later, was when I saw some critics get banned, adding to the list of other evidently harshly punished members, even ones which did AVEN a service, revered or not. Sure one or two of them sounded a wee too complain-y and paranoid (I mean, who isn't these days?), but all the mod/admin and especially BoD critics got trigger-happy-banned. And the Site Comment controversies and tactless community-ignoring BoD decisions, then the plethora of members leaving, etc all added to my desire to leave and not to return. Leaving communities on the whim is my style, but this time it was because the management went to the dogs and I outstayed my welcome. Besides, hardly anyone would've missed me, if even noticed I did a disappearing act...

Arocalypse however is much easier to keep up with, with not-so-much to lead me into losing hours each day. So that and the low-stress chilled community and admins/mods still wins.

[nonmerci]

59 minutes ago, Ammy said:

It honestly bothers me a lot that there are certain moderators on there who see nothing wrong with the idea of fascists being there as long as they dont say anything about it. Like, sure, the admins spoke up against it, but the fact that people who are okay with the idea of fascists being there are allowed to be moderators is completely bonkers.

Yeah same. That's where I left.

I know that there are good people in the moderator team, and that these good people seem to be the more active moderators (or maybe I'm just lucky and I happened to be in the same thread as them). But it disturbed me to know that at least one moderator not only agrees with the idea but spoke up about it publicly.

 

So yeah @Alaska Native ManitouI totally believe you when you say it is better now than before, and I personally was surprised at first cause it wasn't as bad as I heard. There are also incredible people there and I think you are one of them. But I still think that some things can be done to make it better.

[Queerdo]

4 hours ago, Alaska Native Manitou said:

How much has AVEN changed?  Well, I am no longer someone who gets unearned warnings from moderators; I am a mod now.  And I'm not planning to let bigots, fascists or trolls get away with much under my watch.

I have a bad habit of reading AVEN, and see way too much of people (mostly very outspoken allosexual people) expressing very spicy personal takes as universal truths about what sex is and isn't for everyone else. In spite of a "no invalidation" rule, there's a lot of it going around. And I'd rather have these conversations with my offline community where people are a lot more polite, diverse, and accepting of the fact that sexuality and relationships are different for everyone. If I wanted to be told on a daily basis that my mixed-orientation relationships are doomed, I'd read the supermarket tabloids.

On 6/22/2022 at 8:19 PM, Neon said:

And while the aroallo community also emphasizes that they are not asexual, the rhetoric is totally different. It focuses more on how aroallo people aren't talked about enough, and how not all aros are ace. Aroace's existence isn't treated as inconvenient or ignored like we often are in ace spaces.

I don't know if it's "ace" spaces so much as a few particular spaces, albeit ones that are treated as the central space for ace people. I've found some wordpress and pillowfort circles that are generally much more skeptical of cisheterocentric ideas that seem to be pushed on AVEN.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Just to clarify:  1 staff member sided with the member who thought it was OK to brag about being fascist on AVEN.  I believe that the rest were as disgusted as I was.  The Board of Directors can remove a troublemaker from the staff if necessary.  Any AVEN member is free to run for a moderator position & help dilute one person's influence; we need more than we have anyway.

Part of the reason AVEN exists is to educate non-asexuals; so it has an inclusion policy.  Personally, I wish it was more of a safe space, but it is what it is.  Also, the membership includes gray/demi sexuals, people who formerly thought that they were asexual, & relationship partners.

[SkyTuneRein]

It may include greys/demis, but I still felt like a misfit there, although that wasn't really the problem. I also feel like a sore-thumb here, but I feel relatively more welcome and it's more chill. Quite honestly, I don't perfectly fit in anywhere, not even close.

I've heard of one person who thought they were asexual then grey-A of such, but more-or-less "ditched their label" because of the hatred they witnessed and experienced on AVEN, circa 2017 and earlier I think. Their words also concurs with the sub-topic here about fascists and troll-supporters running even amongst their "AdMods".

It's nice to hear they have improved anyway.

Edited March 20, 2023 by SkyTuneRein

[Neon]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:23 AM, Queerdo said:

I have a bad habit of reading AVEN, and see way too much of people (mostly very outspoken allosexual people) expressing very spicy personal takes as universal truths about what sex is and isn't for everyone else. In spite of a "no invalidation" rule, there's a lot of it going around.

11 hours ago, Alaska Native Manitou said:

Part of the reason AVEN exists is to educate non-asexuals; so it has an inclusion policy.  Personally, I wish it was more of a safe space, but it is what it is.  Also, the membership includes gray/demi sexuals, people who formerly thought that they were asexual, & relationship partners.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's important that it's not just asexual people on AVEN. And more often than not I found them to be supportive and kind. Most of their responses that made me uncomfortable came from my insecurity in my sexuality. It was just a couple of people who pretty much always responded to "am I asexual"-type posts (and sometimes even posts were someone was just talking about their experience and not asking for commentary) with everything but direct no's.

I have complex feelings about AVEN, and no real conclusions. I'd probably have to sit down and write a lot of conflicting things to fully parse everything out, and maybe I will. Overall though, I'm glad it's better, and I'm glad that if I need that community they will be there.

 

Also, I think it's important to add that this post was mostly about the asexual subreddits (I deleted my account a few months after the initial post here for unrelated reasons). I went there after I realized how uncomfortable I felt on AVEN, but only ended up joining the meme one. Which had this problem too, but hidden behind "there's too many posts about aroaces".

IDK, I wish I had an actual call to action, something we could do to make asexual spaces more comfortable for aroace people, rather than just complaining.

[SkyTuneRein]

So, basically there was a problem on AVEN that can be summed up in this meme:

[Ace_of_Spades]

On 3/19/2023 at 1:23 PM, Queerdo said:

I have a bad habit of reading AVEN, and see way too much of people (mostly very outspoken allosexual people) expressing very spicy personal takes as universal truths about what sex is and isn't for everyone else. In spite of a "no invalidation" rule, there's a lot of it going around. And I'd rather have these conversations with my offline community where people are a lot more polite, diverse, and accepting of the fact that sexuality and relationships are different for everyone. If I wanted to be told on a daily basis that my mixed-orientation relationships are doomed, I'd read the supermarket tabloids.

I don't know if it's "ace" spaces so much as a few particular spaces, albeit ones that are treated as the central space for ace people. I've found some wordpress and pillowfort circles that are generally much more skeptical of cisheterocentric ideas that seem to be pushed on AVEN.

See, I never had a problem feeling "invalidated" on AVEN.  I just didn't feel like I fit in there. I'm hard to "invalidate" because I'm a neurotypical, 26-year-old aromantic asexual who is not attracted to boys, girls, or any other gender in any way, has never been in a relationship or partnership, never had sex, and only had like 6 occasions of any type of physical intimacy in my life. I also enjoy socializing and spending time with family and friends and can't be happy without that socialization, so I'm not an asocial hermit haha. I just felt like AVEN was way too romance-y and partner-y for me to fit in.

Edit: Not that my experiences are the only valid way to be an aromantic asexual - just that I'm hard to invalidate because of what I described above.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Ace_of_Spades
Clarification edit

[Rather be Reading]

1 hour ago, Ace_of_Spades said:

 I just felt like AVEN was way too romance-y and partner-y for me to fit in.

Ditto. I haven't made an account on AVEN because, at least from a glance, there seems to be a lot of talking about how asexuality affects romantic relationships. I think those descussions are important, but I don't really relate to them at all. 

[Ravensplat]

I am still on AVEN but I have basically just holed myself up in either the games (Hangman, Geography game, Word Association etc.) or Teen Corner over there. I have been able to send a few AroAce Avenites over here to help them work themselves out but I usually stay away from big AVEN post and discussions and instead just talk about our days in Teen Corner. I haven't noticed anything bad on AVEN but I am in a very secluded spot of AVEN so I'm not surprised by this as Teen Corner is pretty much always chill and we keep anything like problems mentioned earlier in separate areas

[Alaska Native Manitou]

13 hours ago, SkyTuneRein said:

So, basically there was a problem on AVEN that can be summed up in this meme:

What happened next: