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Feeling discouraged


Samu
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I confronted my friend on gender ≠ biological sex and he kept on saying that they’re the same thing, that there are only 2 genders and some other nonsense. I recently started to question my gender (might be bigender) and it was really exhausting trying to explain it to him. I feel down and I really want to send him more proofs of what I said, but he’s too stubborn.

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sadly, some people are too attached to their beliefs that they refuse to look beyond said beliefs or to be educated (as is the case with most if not all conservatives). it's not your fault though, he's obviously not being cooperative and doesn't want to.

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A spectrum of genders isn't some modern liberal idea - historically, many cultures across the world have three or more genders. Here's a map showing some of these cultures (there are even more that aren't on the map). I don't know if that'll convince him though ?‍♂️

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9 hours ago, ilse said:

sadly, some people are too attached to their beliefs that they refuse to look beyond said beliefs or to be educated (as is the case with most if not all conservatives). it's not your fault though, he's obviously not being cooperative and doesn't want to.

Indeed, it's like they don't even try to listen and just put up a wall there. And yeah :( I did what I could... What I'm still speechless about is that he said that he is not really interested on educating himself on the issue, can't believe it...

7 hours ago, Sam Spade said:

A spectrum of genders isn't some modern liberal idea - historically, many cultures across the world have three or more genders. Here's a map showing some of these cultures (there are even more that aren't on the map). I don't know if that'll convince him though ?‍♂️

Thanks!

7 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

He thinks there's only two genders because he only has two brain cells.

Hahaha literally, I just started telling him to look up about it in the bunch of helpful resources out there on google 

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8 hours ago, kikicita said:

What I'm still speechless about is that he said that he is not really interested on educating himself on the issue, can't believe it...

Sadly some people are like that... They see all of this are an ideology and not as something that actually exist and can happen to anyone regardless what their opinions on the subject are.

Also it is sometimes difficult to understand for cis people, I think. If I take my personal experience, when I first heard about it, it was difficult to understand that some people identify with another gender, none of them or more than one. For me it was not that I believe there were only two genders, but that I have problem to believe genders exist in the first place, and it was a long way to understand that genders are real.

As I am an open-minded person (or at least I like to think so), I tried to understand,  and I read what trans people had to say and things like that. For people who are not willing to do that, well... Let's say they have another step to pass, which is : get that their conceptions are not necessarily universal truth. And sadly, when they are in this position, it is very hard to educate them on these subjects... I know a demiboy who tried to educate his husband for years until the husband saw a documentary on Netflix and finally get it.

 

I am not saying that to discourage you. Just be aware that if you want him to understand, it will probably be a long way.

As @Sam Spade says, talking about different cultures who had a lot more genders than 2 could be a good idea.

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Because identity is complicated and individual. Not everyone experiences it in the same way.

Gender has multiple associations including being a short hand for biological sex historically speaking, grammatical gender, gender roles as well as the inner identity. 

Honestly I don't experience gender identity at least in that way people consider. Okay I thought of pangender etc for a very short time but never seriously, I think like a blend of things but at the end of the day there is nothing essentially I can point to, if I took a test though I guess id be a blend of stereotypical feminine/masculine traits but at the end of the day it's how you see yourself or feel exprience. You could say agender but that would not be quite right either. I can relate to the experiences of being isolated from society but still nope.

If I do tho chose any category for me it would be based still on my biosex since it affects my experience the most how society treats me and other things it's the easiest thing to define. How I feel though is gonna depend on who I spend time with, if you are talking performative gender, I could even feel inbetween. In the end I wont fit into any category and rushing to label myself doesn't make sense to me, especially as it becomes associated overtime with certain other expectations or generalisations, so I don't think it's a way to escape expectations rather create new ones. That's with any group category though so you always look at things loosely without attachment. I am just myself in the end and want to define myself.

But I get sometimes there is a reason to do so to push back at society or use their categories to explain how they feel or feel accepted in a certain way. Gender non conforming people particularly if its pronounced, but the fact is it depends on the individual what they see themselves as or feel comfortable with. It's more to do with yourself and how you see the world. Also beliefs around it. 

Most of these genders seem to be a mix of female and male or neither/inbetween. Personality ones exist too, neurological and others which talk more about experience in depth. But it seems like this framework in general/the majority instances is about seeing the world in this female/male dichotomy for the most part. What we associate with each depends on culture but there is a generalised idea and perhaps a biological basis but different races/ethnicities do have small differences too. The lines of categories more policised in certain cultures than others too.

I'd point out though usually third gender is often mostly to do with males who do not fit the gender roles. There are some females but it was rarer and harder for them to be allowed to escape their gender role. Many past societies were patriarchal societies. It's only in recent times things have changed to allow more expression (though some things might have gone backward too). Feminism helped liberate certain expectations making it acceptable to dress certain ways but perhaps not for everyone. But with individualism we are all more free to express in certain ways that includes sexuality too which got suppressed in certain societies even if we are not free in other ways.  In collectivist cultures there might be more pressure to be a certain way.

Past cultures had more unique expressions perhaps but with work roles limiting them I think roles were still limited for the most part, though culturally they may have had other conceptions of themselves which would be harder to explain within that framework, such as to do with animals, nature, the land etc. I think it's contextual.

In the end a lot of it is socially constructed even if based on experiences (I suppose like language is) and well I feel that we are all unique individuals trying to find ourselves but we try to group and categorise ourselves as I guess humans just do that, but also if there is some useful reasons to.

In a world free of stereotypes there might still be some notion of feeling different from norm or identity and gender cues but I'd expect the concept to evolve. 

 

This might be a bit of a critque but yes.

 

The reason for someone not engage is they feel it does not matter in their life, they are critical of the concept or such. I guess the best way is to ask questions or ask why they are not interested and explain why.  Get to understand their position more to help u discuss it or aspects of, then he might be more open to it. 

Edited by mewix
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