Jedi

You're not hurting anyone by asking questions^^ We're just being blunt. If these thoughts and experiences shared in this thread has given you something to think about, or made you understand a new point of view a little better, that is all I was hoping for. Take care.

Dreams are basically your brain tidying up. Sometimes it is a bunch of random stuff you haven't been thinking about in ages, dug out from under the couch, and sometimes, it is the stuff that you're constantly thinking about that is lying strewn everywhere that is being picked up. I take it that you are thinking about this person a lot, and worrying about what she thinks of you, and it isn't weird that different takes on that subject shows up in your dreams. I have had multiple separate dreams about me turning myself into a space marine, and all this means is that I have read too many books about space marine lately. Even if it is a lot more visceral in your case, because the subject in your dreams is something real, and something that matters to you, the basic concept is the same. It's on your mind a lot and it is in your subconscious mind too. It doesn't say anything about what she actually feels, or what she'd actually do.

It is very possible to feel strongly for people for all kinds of reasons. I have not experienced this in particular, but I have had feelings of, for example, jealousy come at me from unexpected directions. In an "I didn't even know this was something I wanted" sort of way. Maybe the wish to be close to her is coming to the forefront more intensely now that you know she has a person she likes more than you, in a way that wasn't obvious before. Perhaps the realization that you want a relationship like that increases the effect. Like, you want somebody to spend your life with like that and this person is now the focus of that wish since she's the one who made you aware of it. Possibly these two in combination. I don't really have advice, just points for thinking I guess. If it is coming partly from the concept of a relationship like that, and not just the person herself, then that is a good thing to know about yourself going forward. Then you know what to look for.

I like to call myself 'unromanceable' which is a videogame term often applied to characters in bioware-rpgs. Relating to, specifically, npcs that you can have in your party and interact with, but who do not have a romance path. You can max out my approval but there just is no romance to unlocked. I can understand that this might seem strange to someone who thinks of relationships as hierarchical. Feeling like there should be a next step. And to be perfectly honest, I am not much a fan of that philosophy, and think that even regular, sexual and romantic people could befit from a looser view of that hierarchy. Indeed you should not. I think there is a bit of a miscommunication here. No one is saying that you should give up on finding a romantic partner, or give up on sex. We are saying that, from the sound of everything you said, and based on our own experiences, this friend is not going to be that person. You are going to have to find someone else for that. My interpretation here is that you need her, but you also need something more than she has to give you. And that is fine. That is what I mean about loosening that view of a strict relationship hierarchy, where only romantic relationships really matter. You can still have her in your life while you search for more. Not every need you have needs to be met by one singular person. I see that you are trying to understand, and I appreciate that. You have heard the word aromantic, and now you are seeking out advice from aromantics. That is the right thing to do. And I also appreciate your continued good manners even when the answer is not what you want to hear. And no, your explanation does not change my read on the situation at all. It is about what I already gathered. I'm sorry. Well, that is unfortunate. If you really think that you can't be friends with her, because you are deep in love and always wanting more and hurting for it, then you might have to take some space until you are over it. It is the flip side of the "friendzone" that you're talking about, called the "girlfriend-zone" or sometimes "the bone-zone". Both hurt, but nothing to be done about. It hurts you when someone you liked romantically didn't love you back, and only saw you as a friend. It also hurts when someone you thought was a friend drops you like a moldy potato because if you can't be 'girlfriend' then you're nothing to them. But it is not your friends' fault they were not in love with you. And it is not your fault that you're in love with your friend. I do hope you find some way to manage those feelings without having to take the moldy potato option though. I think the world will be a better place for people valuing their friendships along side their romantic partners, and not seeing them as in competition, but that is a bit of a tangent. This might be another point of confusion. Aromantic people don't generally have romantic partners. So, what partners are we talking about here? You don't have to be doing anything wrong. Sometimes people are not in love with their friends. Love is not a game of doing everything right and get the reward. There is another person on the other end with feelings that you have no control over. And sometimes we have friends that we're not in love with. And that's why the 'friendzone' tends to sound like such bullshit to our ears. I am sorry that you have been feeling used though.

I am willing to bet those are not mixed signals at all. You just have different ideas on how affectionate friends are supposed to be. I have heard that this is sometimes a problem that occurs between men and women even when no one is aromantic, because (allegedly) women tend to me more affectionate with friends than men, and so men sometimes interpret women's "we're close friends" behaviors as flirting. Being aromantic makes this even more likely, she has specifically told you that she doesn't feel that way about you or anyone. Sometimes, as an aromantic woman, one has to be a little on guard about being affectionate with straight male friends, because they might get the wrong idea. But perhaps, having come out to you, she figures you know where she's at. And so, feels she can be as affectionate as she wants to be without fear of misunderstanding. I know I often wish I could just love my friends in a way that makes sense to me, without having that love misconstrued into something it isn't. That she's acting like you're special to her is not contradictory to her being aromantic. Close friendships is the most special we have! And calling that "friendzoning" is a little like saying "if you don't love me in this specific way, then your company is not worth anything." and that just feels a little harsh. Especially since she clearly keeps you in high regard! She's affectionate, she thinks you're special to her, she likes to spend a lot of time with you, all those things are still true, you're not wrong about them. You are wrong thinking that these things are necessarily romantic. Like, shit, can't I spend time with my friends and think they're special to me? Those are my favourite people!

Well, at this point you have tried a lot of ways to try to get him to talk about the state of your relationship with you, and you have some very clear information showing that he won't. He just won't. He likes things the way they are, and will not engage in any defining-the-relationship type discussion. You're probably going to have to accept that is the way of it, and decide what you want to do from there. And one could make the argument that this is bad communication, and not fully healthy. But it could just as easily be that he smells that you are going to ask him for things he cannot give you. That you want something more, and he doesn't. It might be that the whole subject has gotten so contentious at this point that he just won't engage with it. Either way, I don't think there is much you can do about it, you have already tried so many things. It might just be the price of entry in this relationship that he does not want to talk about it, he does not want to be touched, and he will not be more comfortable with it for your pushing the matter. I mean, I am touch-averse myself, though not to that degree, so I get it from both sides. A minimum of 70cm apart? This is entirely normal now when there is a pandemic of course, but in general, like, who is getting out the measuring tape? Even I allow people I'm close to to hug me if they ask first. But I also know what it is like to get pressured and pushback on this. An old teacher (one I like btw) once put her hand on my shoulder without warning and I jumped a meter into the air, as is my reflex, and she was like "people might take offense when you do that. If I didn't know you, that would have hurt my feelings" and I though 1) it's a reflex, and 2) she knows I don't like being touched. Don't do something you know I don't like and then act hurt when I don't like it. And even when you don't know, well, I jumped out of my skin so now you know I don't like to be touched, good information going forward no? I didn't agree that I needed to curb the reflex, I though people shouldn't touch me without my permission. Comfort with being touched came only AFTER I had drawn those boundaries very firmly, and people started to actually respect my personal space. Once I know you respect my bubble, THEN I can let you into it. Your friend have very firm boundaries regarding personal space. You show you care about him by respecting that. And I know touch is a way that humans show affection, I understand this desire. The people who gave me pushback on my no-touching policy were no weirdo strangers, but usually family members who just wanted to show they cared. Pushing on this still will not help either of you though, so don't touch your friend he doesn't like it. That was a lot of words on the touch-averse part, which is really a side issue to the communication problem, oups. But that's where I have the most personal experience. Closing thoughts: I. sending people links about avoidance issues has a risk of coming across as quite condescending, so I am not surprised that he didn't respond to that. II. The fact that he circles back to you with a safe topic suggests to me that he really wants to keep a connection with you, even when it's awkward.

I do agree that 'single' is a bit loaded. It seems to come with the implication of 'available', and I do feel a little weird using it. But I still think that sticking with the word 'single' and using it neutrally like it means just 'not-partnered' is a valid option still. The reason I am less inclined towards thinking of a new term is that it can sound defensive. I actually dislike 'self-partnered' for this reason. I think it sounds quite weird, like "Oh I'm not single totally have a relationship (with myself)". 'Unpartnered' is better in my opinion. Self explanatory and not sounding like you're so embarrassed about your single status that you have to make up a relationship for yourself. Even though I am pretty sure that's the opposite of what the term 'self-partnered' intended. Is 'single' the formal term for being unpartnered in english speaking countries? Like, if you're filling in a form for an apartment and they want to know how many people live there, for example. In swedish there is 'ensamstående' which would be something like 'standing alone' if translated literally (which makes it sound cooler than it does in swedish x) It has a bit of the same implication), and that's used as the formal formal word for single. I don't remember in what online-space, but I have seen someone with the handle 'NotTakenNotAvailable' x) And I of course, like to call myself 'unromanceable', though that might be more a replacement for 'aro-ace' than it is for 'single'

Funnily enough, that isn't the Love, Actually plot that bugs me. I thought those two were fine. What I didn't understand was the married guy who was buying gifts for his flirty coworker. I initially read their interactions as him being vaguely uncomfortable and annoyed with her, I do not see why he was tempted at all. Just dumb decisions for no reasons that are beyond me. The first movie that comes to mind where the romance subplot really annoyed me is the Hobbit movies. I'm not sure you could shoehorn in a terrible romantic plot in a place where it absolutely doesn't belong worse if you tried.

I want to focus on this, because I recognise this feeling. Over the years, I have received enough proof that my friends like me that I can generally recognise that this feeling lies. But even factually knowing that every other time I have had this feeling I have been wrong, doesn't really make it go away in the moment. And it is trust built over multiple years that has allowed me to get to even that point. At this point, we sometimes joke about it as me lacking a sense of object permanence x) (If I can't hear your voice this second, do I know you're still in the call? If you haven't reach out to me in a few days, am I sure you're still my friend?) I have fewer anxious days than not nowadays, thankfully, but I do know what it feels like. And I think the important part to recognise here is that your anxious mind lies to you. You are worthy of having friends, and the feeling that says that the moment they don't look at you they stop caring about you lies. It lies. I hope you feel better soon

Ah, this question. It is an interesting one, partly because I never found the specific answer to it. But I do have a story. See, I floundered here for a long time. I mean, with sexuality it is pretty straight forward, that thing, I don't want to do it. Good to know. But how do I know if I want 'romance' if I don't know what romance even is? I had come to some level of acceptance that I could allow myself not to know, when I entered a relationship with a friend of mine who is really liked and it just didn't feel right. It was long distance, nothing that much had changed in a practical way. So, I spent a bunch of effort trying to pick out and isolate the part of this that bothered me. And while in the end, I decided that the discomfort in itself was enough reason to break up, I have some things that felt wrong about it. It is hard to explain, but the concept of being a "girlfriend" sat wrong with me. It was like I stepped into a roll and a bunch of expectations came with the role that didn't fit me. I was expected to act in ways and care about things that fit into the concept of girlfriend instead of me- the person. It was weird. So, while I definitely knew I was no fan of kissing or pet names, there was also something harder to define, that sat wrong like bad shoes.

Sorry, I can't seem to think of any clips. Most of the aro examples I can think of are from books, and thatäs harder to clip. And even though I am currently reading a huge bookseries about nothing but aromantic asexuals, there are no real single moments that I can put down as an aro moment, if that makes sense. If everyone around you is ace-aro, it's no big deal, you know? So I don't have clips in mind, though I feel like I should have, with the backlog of things I have seen throughout my life. I think the system for accessing things out of my memory is kind of inefficient x)

Some of those clips are really good, but I had no idea of them^^ The Anne one is sweet, and I feel the Little Women one too. Thanks for sharing^^

Both Eredryn and Hellishfish give good advice I think. These are things that I didn't quite know how to express in a gentle way. There are means of finding friends available to you, though I know myself how much easier said than done that is. There is a lot of random chance involved in finding your people. But the anger and bitterness you show also risk turning these broken friendships into a vicious cycle, or self-fulfilling prophecy. You had a very strong reaction to your dad talking about your brothers upcoming wedding. You sound like you are in a really bad headspace, and I wish I could help, but I am rather powerless over here from the other side of a screen. I hope you can find some peace of mind.

Do they stop you from talking to people online?

You sound like you're lonely and angry. Was this an extra bad day, or are you feeling like this a lot?

I see, that does suck. It might be tone-def of me to come with advice (to a moderator no less), since I know very little about what you've already done. But there is this one dynamic that I have noticed that you might want to utilize. I think discussing things like amatonormativity in general can easily get kind of abstract, and everything makes sense and they agree but it kind of stays in a different brainspace than your actual life. Humans you are actively speaking to though, those are real. So, I think it might be worth bringing it up (I avoid saying 'confronting' because that puts in mind a more aggressive discussion) but in a "Hey friend, do you actually believe in that thing you just said?" Like "You really think the relationships I form are 'no big deal'?" Hurting a friends feelings is real. So assuming that your friends don't want to hurt you, it might make them more likely to reflect?

What is it that they're saying and doing that is bothering you? I ask because I feel like amatonormaive things can cover such a wide space, I can't tell what is going on. I did actually speak to a friend about it recently. For a different reason though, and not using the word, I didn't even remember that there was a word for this. But I had been reminded about these ideas, about how romantic relationships are placed on such a high pedestal it is like there is no space for anything else. Like any closeness that isn't romantic or through a family bond is considered to not even be that real. I know those things aren't true, but being reminded of the fact that some people think like that still surprised me by the fact that it hurt. Like I had internalized parts of the message and it's been lying there under the surface. I needed to talk to someone about it, even though I knew that the friend I had easiest to reach isn't all that good at helping with weird feelings (though to be fair, neither am I :P) I did get an interesting response though, that I did not really expect: "Most people don't think like that." Didn't see where these ideas were coming from. Thinking I was mostly affected by my own anxiety and worrying about nothing, really. And while "You're worrying about nothing" is not especially validating to hear, there is something else to it also. It means that these amatonormative ideas didn't register as true to my friend at all. And he didn't recognise them in people he knows either. It is a subtle disease I think, amatonormativity. It's everywhere, and we see it clearer because we are hypersensitive to it. But I guess, just because the message is there all the time, doesn't necessarily mean people buy into it. So that's what I took out of that conversation. My friend is not super great at being emotional support, but, perhaps more importantly, he isn't being amatonormative either x)

I remember that feeling. Discomfort, telling myself that there was no REAL reason for me to feel this discomfort, trying to pretend I didn't. That lasted for a bit over a month before I wisened up and realized that the discomfort itself was the only answer I needed. The push that finally made me break up was realizing I started wanting to avoid my friend, and if I was to retain any warm feelings, then the romantic side of the relationship had to go, before all my affection had been replaced by that ever present discomfort. You asked to do this to try it out, and from the sound of it, it already feels wrong. It really sounds like you have your answer, that you don't actually want this. It makes absolutely no sense to me, to stay in a relationship with the hope that the bad feelings will go away and the good feelings your are told you ought to have will suddenly materialize out of nothing. I think you should trust your feelings on this. It sounds like it won't even be a difficult breakup. You were honest with your friend, they know what's up. It isn't hypocritical to break up now, just because you got the results quickly. If you know you're aro, and that this relationship does not give you joy, then break up. I suspect that the sooner you do it, the easier it will be (even if it feels difficult enough already). In my experience, it does not help to deny your feelings and draw things out.

I find this to be true also. I remember something clicked for me when I read this comic, for example. The confusion of a romantic person is helpful when explaining what romantic means, I found x)

Just saw this and had a weird sense of deja-vu... Turns out it is because I just answered you back on AVEN x)

Hey. I have a tendency of taking things very personally even when they are not really personal, and while knowing that generally doesn't help in the moment, I can see myself in some of these situations. And I think there is something like that going on here. At least with the specific comment your friend made. See, this was not perfectly phrased, but it also wasn't about you. There probably wasn't even that much intention behind it. It is one person going "I like someone who isn't into me :( " and another trying to be supportive like "She's missing out! (because you're great)" It's just an offer of reassurance, it doesn't mean anything. I don't think these people were trying to say anything about the value romance as a concept, or about you at all. It just feels like that, when we feel like we have to be on our guard all the time.

Mine mostly hoped I would eventually change my mind, or at least be open to change, if it happened to come upon me in the future. At this point, they've pretty much accepted that I am not interested, and in all likelyhood never will be. It's nothing contentious, and they likely would have come to the same conclusion even if I had said nothing.

I haven't, but I remember the first book in the series being brought up before. From the reviews I gather these are cute, cheerful and optimistic. About the opposite of the 'grim darkness of the far future', which I find myself stuck in at the moment. I might check them out next time I need to take a break from Horus Heresy and cheer myself up a little x)

My standing recommendations are: The Deed of Paksenarrion, by Elizabeth Moon (fantasy, old favorite of mine, about a woman becoming a soldier. Suppose it is no surprise I was drawn to ace-aro characters even before I had a term for it x)) Ancillary Justice, by Ann Leckie (sci-fi, about a ship-AI, when I read it I wondered if maybe this wasn't the best book I had read so far) I have currently found myself with a new obsession: the Horus Heresy (there are a lot of books in the series, by different authors, but the first one is Horus Rising). They have a lot of ace-aro representation, to be sure, and I find them (the five I've read so far) to be really powerful! But this is the warhammer 40k universe, and they are tragedies, should be noted, so just know what you're getting into.

I came here to talk about the blood-brothers thing too. It is a well known concept, though aged, I feel like. It shows up in old tales and norse mythology, things like that. I never encountered it as a schoolyard thing, like skittles have. And it is also my impression, that a lot of cultures have had similar things. Usually as a symbolic brotherhood thing, and sometimes specifically for battle-reasons, but if we want to apply the concept in a modern age, we can always update those parts. It probably would be a slightly strange to be blood-brothers today, in an actually serious way, but I think it is comforting to know anyway. Because it means that, as humans, in the past, we have felt that need to bond ourselves to individuals in a non-romantic way. It's just fallen out of use in our culture, but the desire for that type of bond is nothing new. It isn't unreasonable that it could become a thing again.