Amatonormativity/compulsory romance and Sexism

[roboticanary]

From this post:

 

One thing that came up is that the amatonormative tropes talked about are mixed in with sexism. For example the idea that stalking is sort of fine if it is done to pursue romance is an idea rooted in sexism.

So I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread discussing that link, the intersection between amatonormative ideas and sexism.

From my experience here are a couple of things I have experienced that are amatonormative but also linked to sexism.

• being judged on my ability to 'pull' a woman as a measure of my worth.
• the stereotype of the bachelor as an untidy slob living on beans on toast 3 times a day. (stemming from the idea that women do the housework so men must be crap at keeping a decent place to live)
• family joking about my desire to learn at least some cooking (I distincty remember my grandad joking that I should just 'get a woman for that')

So what other things can people think of? what are your thoughts on this?

 

[DaviM703]

I've definitely gotten the impression societal beliefs about romance are sexist, like the idea it should be men pursuing women and that men should pay for everything on dates while women are the more passive partner in pretty much all situations. With the level of importance of women in my life as all kinds of influences and all my close friends who have a binary gender, I sort of wonder now if that's a factor in my aromanticism as well as being related to one of the reasons I don't identify as a man. Definitely not all of it as I'm uncomfortable with romantic kissing and settings designed to be romantic, but it may be a factor.

[such]

This is why amatonormativity (and all forms of heteronormativity) are rooted in the patriarchy, and also why (cishet) feminists should care about the aromantic (or more broadly, queer) experience. 

[dewy]

The idea that women need to get a husband to settle down with could be related to beliefs that women can't be independent. Could also be the idea that a woman's job is to take care of the house and her children for her husband. Now that I think about it, it's likely that a lot of amatonormativity is rooted in sexism.

[Eli Vanto]

For women (And AFABS) it’s put on you that your entire worth is based off that one person you’re supposed to date/love/marry. That relates back to how woman are property of men, that thinking back in the something hundreds. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Eli Vanto

[Nix]

Ah yes, I have experienced the ‘stalking is fine if it is used to pursue romance’ one. A couple of years ago I ordered a so called boot jump, a unit you can install in a minivan to turn it into a camper. Since it came all the way from Wales, a specialised company that I had never heard of would make the delivery. They would call me to set a date for delivery, but just suddenly showed up at my doorstep on my day off. I was still in my pyjama’s and quickly put on a sweater and shoes so I could help the delivery guy, who was alone and struggling with the pallet machine. I was mildly annoyed, but mostly very excited that this boot jump had arrived. The delivery guy was curious about it so I talked his ear off.

Little did I know, he was sure I had been flirting with him and used my name on the order to find me online on Instagram. Started private messaging me, I told him to leave me alone and after he accused me of ‘leading him on’ because we ‘clearly had a connection’ I blocked him.

When I told this story to some colleagues they just laughed about it, one of them even asked ‘was he handsome’ and when I replied ‘what does that have to do with it’ she smiled and said ‘You would have been fine with it if he was handsome.’ And I was just shocked.

It is indeed sexist to think that this course of action is perfectly fine if you want to pursue someone romantically, provided they are handsome. I find it wrong either way.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

1 hour ago, Nix said:

Ah yes, I have experienced the ‘stalking is fine if it is used to pursue romance’ one. A couple of years ago I ordered a so called boot jump, a unit you can install in a minivan to turn it into a camper. Since it came all the way from Wales, a specialised company that I had never heard of would make the delivery. They would call me to set a date for delivery, but just suddenly showed up at my doorstep on my day off. I was still in my pyjama’s and quickly put on a sweater and shoes so I could help the delivery guy, who was alone and struggling with the pallet machine. I was mildly annoyed, but mostly very excited that this boot jump had arrived. The delivery guy was curious about it so I talked his ear off.

Little did I know, he was sure I had been flirting with him and used my name on the order to find me online on Instagram. Started private messaging me, I told him to leave me alone and after he accused me of ‘leading him on’ because we ‘clearly had a connection’ I blocked him.

When I told this story to some colleagues they just laughed about it, one of them even asked ‘was he handsome’ and when I replied ‘what does that have to do with it’ she smiled and said ‘You would have been fine with it if he was handsome.’ And I was just shocked.

It is indeed sexist to think that this course of action is perfectly fine if you want to pursue someone romantically, provided they are handsome. I find it wrong either way.

Did you report him to his company?

[Nix]

23 minutes ago, 2 Spirit Cherokee Princess said:

Did you report him to his company?

I emailed the manufacturer, because they were the ones that told me I would be contacted by the delivery company, wich never happened so I had no contact information (there was no company name on the delivery van, he turned out to be a freelancer). They felt really bad and said they would no longer work with him.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Nix
Clarification

[Pyr]

Not 100% related to amatonormativity, but I was watching a VERY old spiderman show that was fairly sexist. Most of the characters were men, and almost all of the villians are men. I can only recall threefemale characters- a mother figure, a love interest, and one a villian. The villain is the Black Cat, and she constantly flirts to spiderman throught the episode. It's sexist for them to make all the females have romance in their character!

[roboticanary]

As well as the stalking/harassment being ok, there is also an entire industry of speakers devoted to teaching guys tricks (no better way of putting it, they are psychological tricks) to get a girlfriend.

There seems to be an attitude that romance is your birthright and if you have to use dubious tactics to make it happen then so be it.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Sometimes they say disturbing things like "when they're weak" & "hypnotic patterns of speech!"

[Nix]

10 hours ago, roboticanary said:

There seems to be an attitude that romance is your birthright and if you have to use dubious tactics to make it happen then so be it.

Yes, like a telemarketer who gets trained to agressively sell people things, romance is now also a ‘product’ you can claim. And if the other party does not want this, more agression seems to be totally fine (it really isn’t, but unfortunately there is a group who thinks it is)

[Alaska Native Manitou]

39 minutes ago, Nix said:

telemarketer

Aggressive?  I'm so chill that some people mistake me for a robocall. 🦥

[Nix]

2 hours ago, 2 Spirit Cherokee Princess said:

Aggressive?  I'm so chill that some people mistake me for a robocall. 🦥

Then I wouldn’t mind you selling me something 😅

Thing is, years ago I worked for the back office of a large telephone company. And the largest part of my job was listening to the recorded calls of the telemarketers who had received complaints. That usually resulted in me undoing the contract they ‘sold’. Which once resulted in one of them coming to my desk and screaming in my face. Bad idea really, because I filed a complaint of my own after that.

Sorry if I insulted you, that was not my intent.

[dewy]

This can happen with men too but it's often a stereotype for women that if they don't seem interested in dating someone they're playing "hard to get". This kinda implies that they are obligated to date someone.

[merlindfluorite]

4 hours ago, bat said:

This can happen with men too but it's often a stereotype for women that if they don't seem interested in dating someone they're playing "hard to get". This kinda implies that they are obligated to date someone.

& that the aggressive 'pick-up' tactics are all part of some game where women secretly want to give it up & a man just has to convince them - which goes right back to the old-fashioned sexism talked about in this thread where a woman's worth was in her ability to marry, & she would be encouraged to string along as many eligible bachelors as possible to get a better deal out of the marriage.

It seems to me that a lot of things that are considered 'romantic' these days are just leftover bits & pieces from the days when marriage was a business transaction. Plus all the places in the world where it very much still is. Hell I would get tax breaks if I got married.

[roboticanary]

On 3/28/2022 at 8:46 PM, bat said:

This can happen with men too but it's often a stereotype for women that if they don't seem interested in dating someone they're playing "hard to get". This kinda implies that they are obligated to date someone.

Yeah, the usual stereotype with men seems to be to play on fear. Either a fear of rejection or a fear of commitment. Whatever way, the idea of cowardice as being a failure of manhood gets used to pressure the lad into conforming.

[Collie]

I'm out as asexual and "not interested in dating", but people are always asking me if I have a boyfriend. Had a hard time explaining that I'm not interested in dating to my bio dad.
My boss always asks me if I have a boyfriend or girlfriend yet. (At least she's somewhat progressive?)

[roboticanary]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:14 AM, merlindfluorite said:

It seems to me that a lot of things that are considered 'romantic' these days are just leftover bits & pieces from the days when marriage was a business transaction. Plus all the places in the world where it very much still is. Hell I would get tax breaks if I got married.

yeah I notice the same thing.

Especially same about the tax breaks, I remeember the most recent marriage tax benefit being introduced where I am.

[Themathlover]

This is one of my struggles. Sexism was a stumble block for me, as a woman, to come in as alloaro. Women are generally told to be more emotional, less sexual and sometimes are even described as naive and dumb. Sexual insults are an evidence of this. Anytime a woman expresses a disconnection between romance and her desires for sex and/or a high libido, she's a "slut", a "whore or a "bitch". How would that be insulting ? If being a slut means being okay with your sexuality, then, I hope every women are sluts, whether heterosexual, bisexual, asexual or anything else ! It's a form of sexist arophobia, in my opinion, to assume that it's not normal for women to just want sex without feelings, but it's something unfortunately common and is hard to cope with for many of my fellows girls throughout the world.

Of course, there may be plenty of others sexist ideas concerning aro women, this one above is just an example. I've heard a lot peope say that women should look for a husband, marry him and settle down with him, have children and take care of them. It's refusing to admit that many women don't fit in this amatonormative system, don't want a husband nor children, don't want to be housewives and are just different from each others as they're... humans ? Aren't they ? 

[hemogoblin]

I would add in the entire idea that dating needs to be done explicitly for the purposes of marriage and looking down upon those who date casually, have sex casually, have friends with benefits, etc. that don't fall into the date-to-marriage pipeline, also playing in with purity culture and sex shaming. You're supposed to be sexually available but only under very specific circumstances (and this is doubly negative if you're a woman, where it's okay up to a certain age for a man to be a player so long as he "settles down" later). And the whole institution of marriage itself, still performed in a sexist manner of exchanging property (the woman) from family/father to husband.