Themathlover

@SuperharoThanks ! I'll fill it !

I'll ckeck it out, thanks for responding !

I ignore how many different nationalities there are on this forum, but since there must be plenty, I was wondering if scientific studies in your native language had been conducted about aromanticism (without asexuality). I've researched in French and in English but haven't found anything...

I'm completely conscious of this, and this is the reason why I rejected my faith for a while. I knew that I couldn't pick what I liked and ignore the rest, this was nonsensical, so I ended up rejecting everything. But I quickly reverted, I'm really attached to spirituality and felt an expanding void growing inside of me. Currently, I'm still questioning, searching and changing. This will occur for sure if I choose to publicly "come out" as a progressist Muslim. However, I'm not surrounded by extreme and dangerous Muslims, they're rather "just" ideologically endoctrinated, and I'm not even physically in touch with them, I was for a short period of time and this was unwanted by both me and my parents, we were doubtful about joining a Muslim community or not and were disappointed by them once we made up our mind to try spending time with them.

Thanks for responding (Yep, that was me, my computer bugged). It's really annoying to put up with this as an aro-spec girl !

As a quoiromantic person, I personally don't get the difference, but the question is : Do alloromantics feel a difference ? I think that yes, it's not the same for them. I'm also idemromantic and have based myself my entire life on external actions to distinguish people being platonically attracted to and those being "romantically" attracted to, although I feel like people who say to love each other "romantically" act like good friends who have sex. This is my quoiromantic perspective, but they don't experience it this way. Whenever I ask them about this, they're not able to clearly put words on their feelings, they can just tell me what happens physically, such as tingles and blush, which sounds rather sexual to me. It's confusing... Anyways, squishes were invented for aro-spec people to better identify their sentiments, crushes are for alloromantics.

No problem, @MulticulturalFarmer directed me to a fabulous progressist Muslim subreddit. I checked it out, and they honestly are fantastic, I think I'm in love ❤️ (aro love 🤣). I read their guidelines, and they 100% share my opinions, values, thoughts... It makes me feel a lot less helpless and hopeless, soon will I certainly revert to Islam in a more steadfast way. I'll keep you up with my evolution, if you want.

Thank you so much, I'll check it out !

As an alloaro girl, I think it was something like "Wait, women can't be like that. You're a slut.". Sexism is a big part of my aromantic experience.

From your French pseudo Atypique, I can tell that you are French, so, I will write my respond in Français. Je te suis complètement sur ce point, c'est ce que j'ai d'ailleurs essayé de laisser transparaître dans ma publication plus haut. Puisque le mariage, civil du moins, n'a plus de réelle valeur, je n'arrive pas à me défaire de l'idée qu'ériger celui-ci en la plus grande preuve d'amour possible est mauvais pour l'amour lui-même : cela voudrait donc dire qu'un contrat légal purement administratif entre deux personnes qui s'aiment et décident de s'unir signifie plus que deux personnes non mariées qui s'aiment tout autant. L'amour réside-t-il vraiment dans des bouts de papier, comme tu l'as toi-même dit ? Je ne suis pas sûre, en tout cas, il y a vraiment matière à réfléchir, à mon sens, sur le rapport à l'amour dans nos sociétés modernes. Je ne sais pas si le fait d'être quelque part sur le spectre aromantique permet en général de mieux cerner les contradictions des structures alloromantiques, mais je crois bien que la communauté aromantique a clairement quelque chose à apporter aux institutions traditionnelles romantiques. Peut-être pouvons-nous la parfaire, la questionner, la compléter ? En tout cas, quelles que soient les raisons de notre existence (biologiques, sociales, psychologiques, neurologiques...), je ne pense pas que notre différence par rapport à la majorité soit une fin en soi, mais que nous avons un rôle à jouer nous aussi. Nous ne sommes pas "inutiles" et "bizarres". Il me semble qu'il existe une théorie similaire en ce qui concerne le neuroatypisme, une théorie qui suggère qu'il ne s'agirait pas d'une défaillance ou d'une chose "atypique", mais que ce serait simplement une autre manière de fonctionner aussi acceptable qu'un trait de caractère inégalement réparti au sein de la population, comme l'introversion, qui est certes moins répandue que son opposée, l'extraversion, mais n'a jamais été considérée comme une défaillance pour autant. Tout dépendrait alors de la manière dont la majorité perçoit les minorités, et ce par un processus de socialisation axé sur ce qui paraît au premier abord comme le plus naturel au monde. Quelque part, c'est compréhensible, et je ne crois pas qu'il faille jeter la faute sur les autres. L'hétérosexualité et l'amour entre deux personnes est un comportement typique de nombreuses espèces qui assure la survie, la perpétuation et la stabilisation d'un groupe. Mais cela veut-il automatiquement dire que toutes celles et ceux sortant de ces "normes" sont "défaillants" ? Je pense que c'est un raccourci très grossier, car les relations et sexualités humaines dépassent largement le cadre de la reproduction, reste à savoir pourquoi et quel équilibre sont censées apporter ces minorités à notre espèce. Or, tant que les gens resteront coincés dans leurs stéréotypes, leur rejet et leur ignorance, plutôt que de s'ouvrir à la recherche, ce travail sera bien difficile. Je ne me souviens plus du nom de cette théorie, mais je l'avais trouvée intéressante, elle fait écho à mon expérience de fille quoiromantique et hétérosexuelle, car j'ai moi-même dû faire face à beaucoup de stigmatisation voire discrimination en raison de ma "différence".

I don't know about the US and else in the world, but as a French person, I don't see many legal benefits from civil marriage. The spouses must have a common residency, share their bills and most of their belongings... I don't want it, especially as an arospec girl. Why would I do this, what would I take advantage of in this situation ? I mean, isn't it simpler to settle down with someone you want a lifetime long relationship with without being romantically attracted to them, like a queerplatonic commitment, and just enjoy your life together ? Honestly, I don't even know why the concept of marriage was invented. I think it originates from religions, to control sexuality, reproduction and preserve bloodlines, but why does it remain in secular societies ? That's a real question, why do people feel like marrying is the accomplishment of love, it's merely a formality, how does it impact the initial love you had for your partner ? I don't know if alloromantics feel the same about it, but the value attributed to marriage in secular societies by atheist people has always left me perplex. If you're not in any religion and don't believe that marriage is a sacred command, then, what's so special in it ? I remember attending a wedding when I was 11, on March 2019, and faking enthusiasm about it because everyone did and I wouldn't have appreciated being frowned upon. But, even at 11, I had this uncomprehension. It meant nothing to me, it was worthless. I was just happy to get so much food in just one day, but the wedding in itself didn't interest me whatsoever. I'm Muslim, therefore, I do attribute value to religious marriage, however, in Islam at least, there is no need for preparing a ceremony and having fun partying all night, you're not obliged to celebrate anything : it's a contract. This is what I learned from my recent reasearch. Two persons agree to share responsibilities and fulfill each other, then, whenever two Muslims persons think they can live together and have the same needs and wishes, they can marry. So, I don't think I will ever marry civilly, but religiously, perhaps.

I just wanted to inform you that I checked the Aspec Muslim discord out, and its members' brains are as much filled with stereotypes as other Muslims... I think I'll leave it and look for another one, or perhaps will I simply give up on finding Muslims like me... However, I'm glad to see that you are respectful and helpful, maybe will I slowly abandon my Muslim fellows whitout losing my faith.

I could endlessly discuss that. Romance is really a non-sense to me. Since amatonormativity is embedded in most cultures but my aromanticism has always been a part of me nonetheless, I suppose that I didn't escape this normative structure, instead, I ineluctably shaped it in an aromantic way, from my personal divergent perspective. When I was just a child, nothing was wrong with this, I wasn't aware of my noncomformity yet, I simply adapted my personality to my observation of common standards, but growing up made me realize this. Actually, aromantics claim to be because they define themselves in opposition to this "norm", and it's possible because of their different interpretations of/feelings about it. For example, I assumed for a long time (I've just lived for 15 years but don't mind) that romance was good friendship and sex. I did great with that, but then heard about "friends with benefits" and wasn't able to figure out the difference from romance. Also, when I entered teenage and most of my fellows began to be obsessed with "crushes", I was something like 12 or 13, but I immediately assumed crushes were persons you craved having sex with. In fact, I couldn't assume anything else, what else would make people so crazy about someone they don't know anything of except the way they look ? I started to be confused at that time. It was so ridiculous and uncomprehensible that you could feel a "romantic" connection with a complete stranger, especially celebrities. They've never ever met them ! What makes them special in these person's eyes ? Even now, this remains a mystery... Personally, I'm a teen but have never experienced crushing on someone. I did experience crushing on someone in the way I thought crushing was at first, but that's another thing. It doesn't mean I've never bonded with someone I wanted to know more about, but this was for a reason : this person shares my opinions, they're calm, they're not too excentric... Inversely, when my classmates had crushes, it was never the result of an attraction towards one or several of their qualities, but entirely random, based on nothing but "just a feeling". Once I started to look into aromanticism, I discovered "demiromanticism", which basically means "feeling a romantic attraction towards someone only after developing a significant bond with them", I believed it to be the norm for literally 15 years !

Hello everyone ! Since I'm just 15 years old and have talked to adults only up to now, it would be nice to meet other teens here.

@nonmerci, Merci beaucoup de ta réponse. Les conseils que tu me donnes sont intéressants mais je ne sais pas si les psychologues qui interviennent dans les collèges et lycées peuvent faire un suivi complet de l'enfant. Ça m'étonnerait, d'ailleurs. Peut-être nous dirigent-ils vers d'autres psychologues qui travaillent en dehors de l'éducation nationale ? Mais dans ce cas-là, comme tu l'as dit, ils sont sûrement tenus d'en informer les parents, ce que j'aimerais, dans un premier temps du moins, éviter. P.S : You can speak both in English and in Français !

I posted a topic where I gave mine a few hours ago. Here it is : I'd like to collect yours, first, to feel less alone, and secondly, to help everyone here struggling with that. It would be a good way to exchange about it

I'll check it, thank you again for your disponibility and thoughtfulness. I really needed that, even through a screen.

This is one of my struggles. Sexism was a stumble block for me, as a woman, to come in as alloaro. Women are generally told to be more emotional, less sexual and sometimes are even described as naive and dumb. Sexual insults are an evidence of this. Anytime a woman expresses a disconnection between romance and her desires for sex and/or a high libido, she's a "slut", a "whore or a "bitch". How would that be insulting ? If being a slut means being okay with your sexuality, then, I hope every women are sluts, whether heterosexual, bisexual, asexual or anything else ! It's a form of sexist arophobia, in my opinion, to assume that it's not normal for women to just want sex without feelings, but it's something unfortunately common and is hard to cope with for many of my fellows girls throughout the world. Of course, there may be plenty of others sexist ideas concerning aro women, this one above is just an example. I've heard a lot peope say that women should look for a husband, marry him and settle down with him, have children and take care of them. It's refusing to admit that many women don't fit in this amatonormative system, don't want a husband nor children, don't want to be housewives and are just different from each others as they're... humans ? Aren't they ?

This is what I think, but it's not as simple as that, in particular when you're just a teenager (I'm 15) and you feel alone in your journey... ... This is the reason why I'm content to be given blogs concerning it. I'll explore that. Thank you !

I do love reading ! But I'm a 15 year old French girl, maybe the books you could recommend would be written in an advanced English... However, I'd be happy to have the references, perhaps could I find their French translations. This was already done a few months ago, I don't think I have much left to say. They globally know the intellectual and emotional discomfort I experience with the most influent Muslim preachers and precepts. I'm seriously considering giving myself away even more anonymously on Reddit, and get to talk about it to people who are living/lived similar things. This seems interesting. What does exactly a CBT therapist is abilited to do ? As I said, I'm French, therefore, I've never heard about this in French. On the Internet, CBT is said to mean "Cognitive Behavioural Therapy". Is that it ?

Thank you very much for answering, I will probably try Reddit as @Holmboadvised me to, I heard about it. @Antioch, I definitely want to remain Muslim, at least, at the moment. I've had a period of fluctuations between losing my faith in Islam and strongly feeling it for a certain time because of those expectations you're relating to, and this is uneasy for me. Currently, I feel like the best for me would be to pursue my journey a bit more spiritually, as my community (and the Muslim community in general) hasn't my values and has disappointed me many times. I don't think I belong to it anymore, yet, I don't want to give up my precious relationship with God (I'm talking for myself, not trying to influence anyone) because of them. This makes me feel lonely, of course, it's not as colorful as the LGBTQ+ rainbow flag, I'm just doing my best.

Hello everyone ! I've not seen a lot of people openly talking about religions here, but I suppose they're essential in the aromantic journey of many. As a muslim girl, I struggle with my aromantic orientation because, well, I'm not asexual, I'm alloaro. Being heterosexual and arospec when one of the commands of my religion is to marry in order to have sex is a real source of frustration. In Islam, I don't think there's any requirement to feel deeply in love to engage in marriage, you just need to both agree on it and feel a certain emotional bond, of course, but must this bond necessarily be romantic ? Maybe are you thinking "Talk about it with the members of your religious community.", but the thing is I've not come out yet, and I honestly don't want to. Not only do I fear judgement, whether or not religious, but, without criticizing religions themselves, it's true that their disciples can be highly sexist... Women are expected to be kind of desireless, submitted and more emotional in my community, unfortunately, which is definitely not my personality. I spoke about that (sexism, not aromanticism) with my parents and successfully changed their minds, they're way more open-minded and stereotypeless (does that word exist ?) now, but my parents aren't the only Muslims in the world. Touring the Internet is enough to realize how spread sexism is within "islamic" organizations. "-Women must wear a hijab to be modest. -But what about men ? They're sexually enticing too ! -It's not the same for men and women." "-Women can't visit graveyards because they're hyper-emotional. -Isn't it the point of visiting graveyards to cry and mourn your loved ones ? -Yes, it is, but women are special beings, so sensitive and fragile it could severely damage them. They just better not do that, it's for men, they're braver." "-Women can't lead, it's up to men to be at the head of our Ummah, because of their superior rationality and ability to govern." "-Women can't travel alone, they need a man to be at their side whenever they leave their town, for their safety." -"Women can't pray during their periods, nor can they touch the Quran, because they're impure." ... And it goes on and on again... I could make a list as long as my arm, but we don't have time for that. I just wrote these examples to show you the reality in which I am. I simply cannot come out under these circumstances. They'd not kill me or wound me, we're not in a movie, but they could repress me, shame me, blame me, tell me I'm sick, or anything like that. No one would like to deal with that, would you ? I know my parents would 100% support and love me if that happened, but I wouldn't like to cause so much chaos because of such a stupid thing. If there's any Muslim here, or a good supportive advisor, I'm still available waiting for answers.

I've already posted a lot of stuff about that where I try to summarize the best I can my thoughts about it. Honestly, I don't want to write three paragraphs concerning it again 😁. If you wish, you can go seeing where I posted about it on my profile. To answer the question, one of the infinite early signs I was aro-spec was thinking crushes were people you craved sex with. It's only while discussing it with a friend a few months ago on WhatsApp that I discovered it was about romantic love mainly. Actually, as I said many times under other topics, romance has never been a unique thing to me. I've always conceived of romance as a sort of combination of strong friendship and sex, so, when I grew up and realized not everyone who felt romantic love wanted to have sex, it took part in my confusion and the beginning of my reflecting process about aromanticism. It turned out I'm quoiromantic, and now, everything is brighter in my mind. It helps a lot to put words on your feelings (or lack of feelings), then, you better understand situations you had lived years ago and it finally makes sense when linked with others !

If you've never had any real crushes but have dated/forced yourself to experience them because you felt compelled to follow amatonormativity, it's a clue you're probably aro-spec. If you've never had any crushes and have never caught the concept of it nor have you ever been able to distinguish it from platonic and/or sexual attraction, you may be aro-spec, and more specifically quoiromantic. If you've never had any crushes ( and found yourself to be in one or both of the two situations quoted above ) but have experienced sexual attraction dissociated from any other types of attraction, you're certainly alloaro ( also called aroallo ), the contraction of allosexual and aromantic. If you're a girl, it's possible that you struggle more than a guy with this because women are commonly shamed for being sexual beings with desires which are not necessarily connected/rooted in emotional bond. As a quoiromantic hetero-allosexual girl, I want you to get these stereotypes out of your mind RIGHT NOW and live a fulfilled life without restraining your own personality to fit in other's expectations. If you're a guy, I wouldn't like to forget you and under-evaluate your pain, it's the same for you. Don't feel bad for that, it's just the way you are, there's nothing wrong with it. The only thing I want to warn you of is to not develop misconceptions about women, as a woman myself, I can guarantee you it's very painful. Women are humans and they're all different. Break away from sexism, I'm begging you 😭 ! And finally, if one or both of the two first affirmations sound like you and you've never experienced sexual attraction, it's a sign you may be aroace, the contraction of aromantic and asexual. However, you can completely be aroace and appreciate sex, yet alone or with a partner. Being asexual means not feeling sexual attraction, it doesn't necessarily include lacking libido. Being asexual and having sex with someone is possible. You don't feel sexually attracted/aroused by this person but take pleasure from the practices you have with them. In fact, asexuals are all different, some are sex-favorable, or what I've just described to you, others are sex-indifferent, they don't really care but will not automatically refuse sex with someone, and finally, some of them are sex-repulsed, they don't want to engage in any forms of sexual activity with others, except themselves ( masturbation ). Every asexuals are valid with the way they conceive of sex as. What is wrong would be to generalize your condition to every others or every other men/women if you're one and/or degrade them for not being like you. As I have to respect you no matter how you are, you have too towards me. I will try to understand you, and so will you. That's all I had to say. Hope it helps 😉.

Thanks for responding, I thought no one would ever ! To answer your question, actually, no, I'm not seeing a therapist, but I am looking forward in it, as I'm feeling really lonely and most importantly, lost. But this would mean talking about this to my parents, as I'm a minor and would need their permission for such a thing. I'm not feeling really comfortable with having to give away so much about me to them currently, it's really touchy and would involve intimate reveals to them, not just about sexuality, but also about just me and what I'm going through, including certain aspects of my past and my feelings I wouldn't appreciate them to access...Even my only friend I have a real bond with doesn't know these things concerning me. It's delicate, definitely not easy. If you have any recommendation, I'd be glad to hear about them. Thanks again for reading my post and leaving a respond !