Sometimes I just want to mount a public awareness campaign about amatonormativity

[Holmbo]

[DaviM703]

I can help with that. Actually, just a couple hours ago in my public speaking class I made a persuasive speech about why amatonormativity as a claim about how everyone should live is invalid. My teacher and multiple classmates told me I did really well so I think I'm going to try to start making more speeches about that in more public settings.

[Holmbo]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:22 PM, DavidMS703 said:

I can help with that. Actually, just a couple hours ago in my public speaking class I made a persuasive speech about why amatonormativity as a claim about how everyone should live is invalid. My teacher and multiple classmates told me I did really well so I think I'm going to try to start making more speeches about that in more public settings.

Cool! Maybe give us others some key phrases for tips?

[DaviM703]

The largest focus of that speech was on the studies that claim to prove being in a romantic relationship or getting married makes you happier. I pointed out that they were conducted in society rather than a controlled lab setting and compared it to doing a study of the relationship between height and happiness done in an apartment building where all the doorways have a low clearance of around 5'7" and finding that shorter people are happier without considering that maybe bumping their heads frequently is what's making taller people less happy rather than not being shorter. I also talked about how most other ways the argument that you should get married is made depend on logical fallacies and about the prevalence of amatonormativity.

[NullVector]

53 minutes ago, DavidMS703 said:

the studies that claim to prove being in a romantic relationship or getting married makes you happier

Does breaking up or getting divorced also make you happier?  (I mean, it's not as if those aren't common outcomes of romantic relationships - so these are maybe not the most reliable path to stable, long-term happiness!). Also, what makes the average person happy has no bearing on what would (or worse 'ought') to make an individual happy. Most people aren't aromantic. It wouldn't surprise me if the average allo-romantic person was measurably happier in a romantic relationship than not in one. But, for aromantics, the opposite wouldn't surprise me! So, the studies, even if methodologically and empirically valid, would be irrelevant for aromantics.

[DaviM703]

Another problem with many of the studies is that they only counted the people who stayed married as married, though some looked at if people had ever been married but that still doesn't account for society and the fact that what is best for one person may not be the same as for another so that if most people did what would make them happier but those who did one thing were rewarded for it and those who did the other were treated like there was something wrong with their lifestyle, that could produce different outcomes for the two groups not caused directly by relationship/marital status.

[DeltaAro]

19 minutes ago, NullVector said:

Also, what makes the average person happy has no bearing on what would (or worse 'ought') to make an individual happy. Most people aren't aromantic. It wouldn't surprise me if the average allo-romantic person was measurably happier in a romantic relationship than not in one. But, for aromantics, the opposite wouldn't surprise me! So, the studies, even if methodologically and empirically valid, would be irrelevant for aromantics. 

Yes, it's that simple.

 

 

[Mark]

13 hours ago, DavidMS703 said:

The largest focus of that speech was on the studies that claim to prove being in a romantic relationship or getting married makes you happier.

Here is what a researcher has to say about this.

 

13 hours ago, NullVector said:

Does breaking up or getting divorced also make you happier?  (I mean, it's not as if those aren't common outcomes of romantic relationships - so these are maybe not the most reliable path to stable, long-term happiness!). 

A common flaw in methodology is to mix divorced and widowed people with never married people.
 

13 hours ago, NullVector said:

 Also, what makes the average person happy has no bearing on what would (or worse 'ought') to make an individual happy. Most people aren't aromantic. It wouldn't surprise me if the average allo-romantic person was measurably happier in a romantic relationship than not in one. But, for aromantics, the opposite wouldn't surprise me! So, the studies, even if methodologically and empirically valid, would be irrelevant for aromantics.

There's a stereotype of single people single mindedly wanting to be coupled. I recall some research showing that this only applied to something like 18% with the majority being happily single. So maybe romantic relationships don't make a significent proportion of of alloromantics happy. The usual assumption when a romantic relationship breaks up is that it was with the "wrong person' rather than being the 'wrong thing'. The possibility that even some alloromantics might find non-romantic relationships better than romantic relationships is unlikely to even be considered.

 

 

[Apathetic Echidna]

On 11/2/2018 at 7:27 AM, DavidMS703 said:

a study of the relationship between height and happiness done in an apartment building where all the doorways have a low clearance of around 5'7" and finding that shorter people are happier without considering that maybe bumping their heads frequently is what's making taller people less happy rather than not being shorter.

???

That is a genius example!

 

So many flaws can be built into surveys. I wonder how many marriage surveys didn't ask about orientation before same-sex marriage was legalised? I know there were lots of people pissed off about not being able to marry, therefore creating in the survey many unhappy 'unmarried' people. I've edited a few surveys and so many survey makers leave their data open to undermining

[Mark]

7 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

So many flaws can be built into surveys. I wonder how many marriage surveys didn't ask about orientation before same-sex marriage was legalised? I know there were lots of people pissed off about not being able to marry, therefore creating in the survey many unhappy 'unmarried' people. I've edited a few surveys and so many survey makers leave their data open to undermining

Typically the biggest flaw in these kind of studies is to group previously married people with singles.
Once that issue is addressed it turns out that there is little difference between single and married people. With ex-marrieds, especially divorced, being less happy.
 

This is a somewhat surprising result. Given extent of singlism and marital privilege (both social and financial).
So you might expect something analagous to head bumping to be going on here,.

[Apathetic Echidna]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

This is a somewhat surprising result. Given extent of singlism and marital privilege (both social and financial).
So you might expect something analagous to head bumping to be going on here,.

It does make one wonder about the prevalence of the aro-spectrum in the population. Without repulsions/aversion or interaction with Aro-aware spaces many people will be living with the feelings but not with the knowledge....but that might influence their preference to remain happily single in the face of singlism and marital privilege.  

[Mark]

On 1/25/2019 at 11:36 AM, Apathetic Echidna said:

It does make one wonder about the prevalence of the aro-spectrum in the population. Without repulsions/aversion or interaction with Aro-aware spaces many people will be living with the feelings but not with the knowledge....but that might influence their preference to remain happily single in the face of singlism and marital privilege.  

I recall that when single people are actually asked what they want more than half are uninterested in becoming coupled/married. With under 20% conforming to the amantonormative stereotype of being desperate. Considering that married people are around half and dropping in Western countries it's plausible that there could be a lot more aros than the usually quoted 1-3%.

[NotHeartless]

On 1/26/2019 at 2:02 PM, Mark said:

Considering that married people are around half and dropping in Western countries it's plausible that there could be a lot more aros than the usually quoted 1-3%.

I can imagine this very well. My assumption is, as @Apathetic Echidna already implied, the term "aromantic" or "aromanticism" isn't as widespread yet that's why people won't use these words to express their preference to stay single (or "lack" of a feeling). Most of other happy singles I've met in my life either didn't talk about it or just said "I'm happy the way it is", "I don't feel the need for a relationship", etc.
I used to say similar things before I stumbled across AVEN and Arocalypse. I didn't even know it's possible to feel on different levels regarding sexual attraction and romantic attraction because I was taught sexual attraction automatically contains romantic attraction (and vice versa).
That's why I didn't understand myself for quite some time.
Won't hold a lecture about visibility here because we all know the importance of it (hence why I'm going to put buttons and badges on my backpack and talk about it with others).
But yeah, if one day "aromantic" is as well-known as other terms to describe oneself I'd be more than interested to see new statistics.

[Anything_but_allo]

@Mark agreed. Also, think of it this way, I believe there was a fairly recent study that concluded the asexual population was around 4-5%, which leads me to believe that aromantics in the US have to be somewhere around in the millions, it’s just that the term aromantic is not acknowledged, which is why it’s important that we get the term out there more and present it as a normal thing. But wow, more than half said they were uninterested? That’s quite surprising, I didn’t realize that. I think there are definitly more aros than we are lead to believe there are. 

[Mark]

22 hours ago, Anything_but_allo said:

I believe there was a fairly recent study that concluded the asexual population was around 4-5%, which leads me to believe that aromantics in the US have to be somewhere around in the millions, 

Even as low as 1% would equate to over 3 million, with 5% being just over 16 million. 

 

22 hours ago, Anything_but_allo said:

But wow, more than half said they were uninterested? That’s quite surprising, I didn’t realize that. I think there are definitly more aros than we are lead to believe there are. 

I can't find the original article. IIRC it was 55% uninterested, 18% desperate and 27% interested.
It also is possible for aros to be married/coupled or seeking to be. coupled. Especially those who are not repulsed by romance or monogamy.

[Anything_but_allo]

Whoa, 16 million. I don’t think there are 16 million asexuals but if that were to really be true then the amount of aros we have could even be up in the 10 millions. Also, very true point. I think there are a lot of aros that may be unaware of the fact that they are aro and do not feel romantic attraction, despite looking for a romantic partner

[Mark]

11 hours ago, Anything_but_allo said:

Also, very true point. I think there are a lot of aros that may be unaware of the fact that they are aro and do not feel romantic attraction, despite looking for a romantic partner

Aros are not intrinsically asexual, asensual, asocial or arealational. Even though some are one or more of these things.

The obvious issue here is that amantonormativity puts romantic relationships on a pedestal whilst devaluing other relationships. Thus rather limiting options for aros. Especially those who desire sexual or sensual relationships.

It's possible that many aros might be "aware" that they don't feel romantic attraction; that (romantic) relationships feel "second best"; they'd much prefer some other type of relationship and so on. However without knowing the term "aromantic" along with the split attraction model it's virtually impossible to talk about this.

[Anything_but_allo]

@Mark exactly, I think that’s actually why many aros that don’t know what the term is feel lonely in life and feel the need for romantic relationships, when in reality they would prefer something else. And thank you for mentioning the issues that those desiring sexual or sensual relationships face. Often times those people are put down and can be deemed “whores” or losers. Although it’s true that sex and things like that are marketed and are often times put out in our faces, people that desire more sexual relationships to romantic ones are often put down due to amantonormativity. 

[Mark]

17 hours ago, Anything_but_allo said:

I think that’s actually why many aros that don’t know what the term is feel lonely in life and feel the need for romantic relationships, when in reality they would prefer something else. 

Romantic relation ships, especially if hetero and monogamous, are strongly "marketed" as being the way to address loneliness.
When that dosn't "work" it's seen as wrong person, failure to try hard enough, not ready or a similar personal failing.
The idea that it could be the wrong thing or that there might be something better being akin to heresy.

 

 

 

[Anything_but_allo]

6 hours ago, Mark said:

Romantic relation ships, especially if hetero and monogamous, are strongly "marketed" as being the way to address loneliness.
When that dosn't "work" it's seen as wrong person, failure to try hard enough, not ready or a similar personal failing.
The idea that it could be the wrong thing or that there might be something better being akin to heresy.

 

 

 

Wow, you perfectly summed it up. These relationships are often marketed to be to be this amazing “cure” for loneliness. And exactly, they blame it on, “oh, they’re probably jsut not the right person, you just have to keep looking!” Then howcome people have gone through multiple, and I mean multiple partners and eventually marry and end in divorce? This doesn’t always happen but pretty darn often it does. Wouldn’t those people just be happier if they created a stronger bond, platonic bond with someone else? Or staying solo? And wow, “heresy” that’s a perfect way to put it. Thanks for replying again

[Mark]

22 hours ago, Anything_but_allo said:

Wouldn’t those people just be happier if they created a stronger bond, platonic bond with someone else? Or staying solo? 

There are many types of relationship which are neither romantic or platonic.. e.g. both versions of Friends With Benefits.

[Anything_but_allo]

@Mark yea you’re right, like Alterous attraction and friends with benefits like you mentioned. Sorry, I forgot to mention those in my original post 

[Mark]

On 1/27/2019 at 7:12 PM, Anything_but_allo said:

 But wow, more than half said they were uninterested? That’s quite surprising, I didn’t realize that. I think there are definitly more aros than we are lead to believe there are. 

I found the article. 
55% uninterested, 26% in relationship, 16% looking, 3% undeclared/other.
Which equates to around a quarter of the total population being "single and uninterested".
Together with "desperately seeking" being under 8%, even though that is the popular stereotype of singles.

[Anything_but_allo]

@Mark oh yes I did see this! It’s weird how in reality there are actually way more happy singles than the stereotypes “desperate” people. But I do have a question, do you know the age groups of those people that were uninterested compared to those that were desperate? I think it would be interesting to see if the desperate singles were younger? Due to media being made for younger (teens-young adults) tends to be the stuff that’s flooded with romance. Sorry if this sounds dumb, but I would be curious. Thanks again for this information

[Mark]

11 hours ago, Anything_but_allo said:

@Mark oh yes I did see this! It’s weird how in reality there are actually way more happy singles than the stereotypes “desperate” people. But I do have a question, do you know the age groups of those people that were uninterested compared to those that were desperate? I think it would be interesting to see if the desperate singles were younger? Due to media being made for younger (teens-young adults) tends to be the stuff that’s flooded with romance. Sorry if this sounds dumb, but I would be curious. Thanks again for this information

They did do some age breakdown. 
Even with the youngest age group the "looking" is only 22%.

Something interesting is that whilst actual marriage rates have been declining the hyping of marriage/coupling within popular culture (matrimania) has been "ramped up".

There's also a breakdown between men and women.
Which seems very much at odds with the stereotype of women being "more romantic".