Jot-Aro Kujo

2 hours ago, leaflvr said:

hi! i’m allo-allo and have a specific situation that i would really like some aro advice on. So, i’ve had a crush on this guy for 3 years and i finally feel ready to ask him on a date. However, a mutual friend who knows i like him told me that he is aro. I don’t know what to do know. I’m not really sure what kind of aromantic he identifies as so would it be rude to ask? Would it be weird to not tell him i have romantic feelings for him? If he’s grey-aro can he date people? Of course if he doesn’t feel romantic attraction at all hopefully we can still be friends! Thank you in advance for helping my clueless ass out  

Whether or not you tell him is up to you. You know him well by now, I'm sure- How do you think he would respond? Do what you think is best.

I think if you do decide to tell him, it might be a good idea to be careful to assure him that it's ok if he doesn't want to date you, and that this will not change your relationship. And if he feels awkward or uncomfortable around you after that, give him a little space if you can; I don't know how romance repulsed he is (if at all, I hope for both of your sakes he isn't), but for some aros it can be very, very uncomfortable and even scary to find out that someone you think of as a friend has a crush on you. Ideally it won't be an issue, but if he seems uncomfortable, I think the best thing to do would be to not pressure him, continue to demonstrate that you're not going to treat him any differently, and let him back away if he needs to. If you're good friends, he'll probably come around eventually.

Of course, if he is nasty to you about it, then yeah he's probably not worth your time.

One last thing, though- Uh, is he open about his aromanticism? Did your mutual friend out him without his permission? If so, that's not cool. I would probably double check that if I were you, and if it turns out your friend did indeed pull a dick move and out someone without their consent, either a. try not to let on that you know he identifies as aro or b. tell him that your friend told you. It sounds like they probably meant well, but he does have a right to be upset if he was outed without permission.

Maybe it is disappointing to your parents. So what? Are you your parents? Are you a person, or are you their dress-up doll? 

This is something I've said to many people about many things, and now I will say it to you: Fuck your parents, the only person you need to worry about disappointing is you. Life is short, so live for yourself, not for other people. Don't force yourself into a life you don't want just because you think it'll make someone else happy. Do what makes you happy, and I'm sure if your parents love you, they'll come around when they see how wonderful a happy you can be.

I know it can be hard to feel like someone you love is disappointed in you, but ultimately, they're the ones making the choice to be disappointed. I hope that, if your parents are worthy of your love, they'll be able to make the right choice.

Depends on the person. Anxiety and dread in regards to romance is not aromanticism- It's romance repulsion, which is common among aros. Just like how it's not true that forgetfulness "is" ADHD, but rather that it is a common symptom of ADHD. Romance repulsion isn't aromanticism, no, and not all aros experience it, but it is very commonly experienced by aros.

You don't. Because you can't say you're "the only person for them"- They have freedom over their own lives, and frankly, trying to convince someone that they can't be happy with anyone other than you sounds manipulative if not downright abusive. Also, I'm not sure you realize this, but this is a forum for people who experience little to no romantic attraction, so maybe not the best place to ask how to beg someone to be monogamous?

1. One that exists, and will not involve romance, ever

2. No

3. Forbidden by society

Like, to be honest... Allo aros are stereotyped as having lots of one-night stands or whatever, but honestly? A lot of the allo aros I've spoken to haven't even had sex, myself included. Society makes it very, very difficult to safely access sex unless you're in a romantic relationship. "Hookup culture" mostly lives at parties and bars, which is no good for those of us who aren't very social or just don't like those kinds of activities. Dating apps are also similarly off the table for those of us who don't want to get murdered (hi, queer latina here). And even "hookups", if you can get to one, are risky, because society has this concept that even if you explicitly say you're only looking for a sexual relationship and not a romantic one, if the other party "catches feelings", then it's your fault and you have to "take responsibility" and date them, or you're a horrible person.

The concept of actually having a sexual relationship as an allo aro is basically a fever dream to those of us who aren't lucky enough to be very party-style social, and/or romance favorable.

Sure, you have the right to whatever opinions you want. But you also have to accept that the vast majority of the community welcomes arospecs, and will not play along with your bullshit. Try all you want, but it's not happening.

3 hours ago, Fynnlee said:

@SJB @Jot-Aro Kujo

I did it!!! I talked to them and it didn't go awfully!

I have no idea whether we are still dating or not, but if we aren't then at least we are still friends and they are still talking to me!!!

So that's great!

Great! I'm so glad to hear it!

Bruh, literally everyone knows at this point that the only reason you want to redesign the aro flag is because you're offended that the current design is inclusive of arospec folks. Give it up. Your subtle exclusionary tactics are not going to fly under anyone's radar.

1 hour ago, SJB said:

 

I would like to know more about this, it sounded like you knew you were lying to others not just yourself ? Did you always know you were aromantic or something like it? I am looking to learn about about this and how it felt when you realized there was another option? 

SJ

I didn't always know. I mean, I knew I was different, but I didn't have a concept of being aro at the time (because I wasn't aware that it was possible to be aro and not ace). When I first started dating my ex, I did convince myself that I had romantic feelings for them, although deep down I think I did know I didn't and was just hoping that I would develop them over time; Eventually, though, it became very clear to me that I did not. I continued to fake it for some time, because I didn't want to disappoint people, but eventually decided to break up with them, and it was a huge relief when I did. I didn't find out I was aro until several years later.

1 hour ago, SJB said:

 

Not sure if you are meaning my post but I did not know at the time I was doing it and now that I do I no longer do it. Its about my values which integrity means I am honest. Could you clarify who you are talking to please?

 

SJ

Sorry, you're right, I misread. I think I got your post and the other person's post mixed up. My comment was directed in general at people who are aware what they're doing, but I guess I didn't read your post clearly enough and thought that was what was going on. My bad!

I'll be honest: As someone who, yes, did do this (and was miserable the whole time), I really, really don't think this is an ok thing to do. It's not right to lie to your friends, guys. Alloromantic folks expect a certain mutuality in their romantic relationships; How would you like it if one of your friends didn't actually like you, and was only faking it for convenience? You'd feel hurt and betrayed, right? So don't do that with romance.

Now, I'm not saying you can't have a romantic relationship as an aro. You can! But you need to be honest about it. Say, "Hey, I'm not romantically attracted to you, but I'm still willing to date you and do the things you'd like to do. Is that ok?"

And remember, they have the right to say no. If they do, and even if they decide to stop being friends with you, you need to accept that. It's ok. If you're looking for one relationship type, and they're looking for another, and you can't reconcile that in a way that is fair to both of you, then maybe you're just not compatible. There's nothing wrong with that, and there are plenty of other friends out there in the world- But you need to be honest. You can't keep deceiving people who believe you feel a certain way about them when you don't.

1 hour ago, sennkestra said:

 

 

I would be careful about making assumptions about how easy it is to figure out an aroace identity as well - it's all too easy to assume that the grass must be greener on the other side, but I think we just don't have the data need to really know one way or the other yet (though that might defintiely be an interesting project for future ace and/or aro research projects - we do know that aces as a group are  likely to have their first self-realization somewhat later in life  - I think the median in the last ace census was around 19? but I don't think anyone has looked at how that breaks down by romantic orientation, especially for non-ace aros ) .

While sticking to hypotheticals,  I would agree that it might be easier for an aroace person who has already learned about and joined an asexual community to learn about aromanticism / that that's an option. But the big limiting factor for most asexual (and aro) people is that they don't even know that something other than just gay/straight/bi exists as an option in the first place - which leads to the same exact kinds of denial and explaining away that mango mentioned. (I know I in particular spent many years assuming that all crushes and "ooh, he's so hot" were just other teens my age imitating hollywood teen movies to pretend to be grown up - because surely, no one my age actually cares about any of that, right?) It's pretty impressive what loops the brain can through to try and fit into an existing box, no matter how poor the fit might be.

Sorry, I thought I was more clear about my wording. That's exactly what I meant- Even after being made fully aware of many LGBTQ+ identities, including asexuality, aromanticism, and even demisexuality and demiromanticism, it took me a long time to understand that I was aro because nobody had ever told me you could be aro if you're not ace. I've heard similar stories from other allo aros as well. My point was less "Aroaces figure it out right away" (which is of course completely untrue) and more "If an aroace and an allo aro are both exposed to the same LGBTQ+ resources at the same time before being aware of their own identities, in general it may take longer for the allo aro to understand their orientation than the aroace, because there is a large lack of awareness for allo aro issues".

I absolutely do not think it's easy to figure out that one is aroace, and I didn't mean to imply that it was, so I'm sorry I didn't word that more clearly (I tried to but evidently did not succeed). But from the aros I have spoken to, most allo aros agree that it took them a long time to figure out their orientations even after exposure to certain resources, whereas the aroaces I have spoken to generally very quickly learned they were aro after learning about asexuality. I was surrounded by aroace friends as a teen, but still hated myself and believed myself to be broken because nobody had ever told me that I could be aro too. This is a painfully common experience for allo aros, which is what I was trying to convey.

48 minutes ago, LauraG said:

Ah, I see. You don't feel like Coy acknowledged the why behind arokaladin's post enough - am I reading that right? Coy mentioned the reason why this was happening in the original post, but didn't mention it again when referencing the other examples of this happening in this thread, until you pointed out that ix may have been mischaracterizing arokaladin's words?

 

Honestly, it’s not really about Annest specifically. I feel that every Tumblr user mentioned in this thread has been unfairly mischaracterized and taken out of context- See, for example, the claim that aphobephobe “had a friend repost” misinformation, when in fact they never did so. Yes, that’s been resolved now, but the claim should never have happened in the first place.

And, given that this platform is not Tumblr, had there not happened to be people here who were aware of the actual context and willing to speak up, it would have been perfectly possible for everyone to assume this is true and go “Gosh, what a nasty person that aphobephobe is, spreading lies like that,” with no one being there to defend them. I do not think this kind of behavior is at all fair. 

24 minutes ago, LauraG said:

 

Can you elaborate on why it feels like that to you? I'm personally not reading that from Coy's initial post that started the thread. And in the rest of the thread, it seems to me like Coy is responding fairly calmly to some confrontational responses to the original post.

 

I realize that different people read things differently though, so I want to understand where you're coming from here.

Like I said, there's a lack of anything positive to be brought out of that first post. Far too many times I have seen accusatory statements along the lines of "The aro community is bad because they don't constantly acknowledge that everything they have came from the ace community!!!!", and this feels very similar, because the thread itself initially lacked acknowledgement of why these things are happening, nor any sort of "Here's what you can do to help". It was just a statement, "The aro community is doing bad things". I'm tired of such accusations. The aro community is bad, bad, bad, we need to apologize for saying words, we need to apologize for having feelings, we are so bad for doing things. I'm sure it comes across very differently to aroaces, but to those of us who have been constantly shut down and pushed away from our own community, it's a very familiar rhetoric- Pointing fingers at the aro community for not giving constant credit to the ace community. It's hurtful and it's exhausting and seeing this thread, even having read the full Tumblr post, just feels like a repeat of that.

Furthermore, the mention of specific posts and their number of notes does feel a little unnecessarily bitter- There could be any number of reasons why one post might have more notes than another. Maybe the blog has more followers, maybe it got reblogged by a popular blog, maybe it was phrased in a way that's easier for people to parse than a full essay. Just because one post isn't as popular as the OP wants it to be doesn't necessarily mean the aro community has a specific agenda; This, combined with the mentioning of specific Tumblr users and especially their words being taken out of context, makes it feel like a bitter accusation towards members of the Tumblr aro community specifically, without any real attempt to address the context behind their words- It's just "This person on Tumblr made a bad post! I'm gonna show that bad post to everyone on Arocalypse so they know how bad it is!"

If I were to reframe the issue in a less accusatory light, I might say something along the lines of "Hey, I've noticed the aro community has an issue with misinformation regarding QPRs. I see this go around a lot on Tumblr. I think this is probably happening for xyz reason, and I understand that completely, but this is still bad because blahblah. I think it would be really good if we could work together to prevent this from spreading further. You can help by doing yadda yadda. Here's a post with more information on this topic," etc.

6 minutes ago, sennkestra said:

 

@Jot-Aro Kujo have you had a chance to read the original essay that was linked in the beginning of this thread? It specifically sets aside space to talk about some of the reasons that this might be happening, and to acknowledge that a big driving factor behind some of these conflicts are the mutual hurts between various parts of ace and aro communities.

 

I have, yes, but the post and the thread come across very differently. The post is fine; The thread feels like an inflammatory attempt to shame the community and to call out users from a completely different platform. That's not cool.

Alright, let me rephrase what I meant: I definitely agree that misinformation is a problem. I do think that people should stop claiming QPRs were not created by aces, and I think it is good to spread awareness, especially given that a lot of people genuinely don't know any better. I also agree that "just don't mention who created QPRs if it's not relevant" is fair enough.

What I take issue with is the initial way this issue was framed in this thread. I feel like the initial post was very negative, more of an accusation than a PSA. It felt very much like specific individuals were being "called out"; Some of these individuals, like Annest, do not use the forums and therefore wouldn't be able to defend themselves, while others, like Magni, shouldn't really have to defend themselves and may find doing so stressful.

Speaking especially as someone who has very deep, personal experience with the ways the ace community (especially allo aces) has hurt aros, to me... It just feels kind of like a repeat of that. To storm in here saying, "The aro community is doing A Bad, and you need to stop!!" without acknowledging why this is happening, without saying "I understand your hurt and I hear you," without saying "Here's what you can do to help," without giving any sort of positive end at all... It just feels like finger-pointing. Oh, how shameful the aro community is, once again committing sins against our great ancestors. How terrible. Thanks? And..?

I would say it definitely affects the experience of aromanticism differently, or at least the experience of the aromantic community. I've noticed that allosexual aros, myself included, tend to have a more prolonged questioning period than most aroaces even after exposure to LGBTQ+ communities, because aromanticism isn't often talked about outside of asexuality. Aromanticism is still thought to go hand-in-hand with asexuality in many ways, and aro resources communities, or pride-related things are often included as a part of ace things, which can feel isolating to allo aros. (One example I recently saw: A Picrew, aka doll maker, that included pride pins. Some were combos, and although there was a combo pin with the aro and ace flags, there were no combos for the aro flag with any sexual orientation other than ace, which made me feel very left out and like I had to "choose" between my aromanticism and my bisexuality when aroaces did not. Even if it's something as trivial as a dollmaker, little things like this can really add up.)

The prejudices we deal with from outside are different, too. Aroaces are more likely to be thought of as being naive, child-like, "innocent", or completely detached from all emotion, while allo aros are more likely to be thought of as predatory, perverted, manipulative, slutty, or just making excuses in order to use others- Even by people who might have no awareness of someone's sexual history, or if they even HAVE a sexual history at all.

Honestly, I'm still confused as to what the exact purpose of this thread is.

You've established that QPRs were coined by aces. You've established that misinformation about this subject is a problem, particularly on Known Horrible Website Tumblr Dot Com. You've called out specific individuals for the grave sins of a. not knowing things nobody told them and b. wanting to discuss their community without constantly having to owe everything to a community that continues to hurt them to this day. You've said that denying the history of QPRs won't do anyone any good.

So what, then, is your solution? What do you want us to do? What is your solution for those who are tired of having "ACTUALLY sweaty, the ACE community invented (everything about the aro community)" held over their heads at all times?

I agree that misinformation is bad, and I understand using examples to illustrate your point. But I haven't really seen a lot of positive action coming from this thread; So far, it just kind of seems like a way to make people, especially particular individuals, feel bad. Yes, we KNOW aros owe our pitiful, meaningless existence to the great deeds of the ace community. Yes, we KNOW we're horrible monsters for not showering the ace community with praise at every moment. We know, we know, we know. What do you want us to do about it? And what do you want them to do about it?

I also, frankly, feel like it's kind of unfair to complain about specific individuals who don't even use this platform. It's one thing to say "This thing is an issue on Tumblr," it's another thing entirely to say "Persons A B and C are perpetuating this issue on Tumblr". As others have said, if you have a problem with them, you should reach out to them directly. If you've already done that, then... That's that. Sorry if you didn't get a satisfying result, but the hell do you expect us to do about it?

Fair enough. I just didn’t want Annest’s words being taken out of context and made to look dismissive and rude. She’s a close friend of mine who puts a lot of thought into her posts, so regardless of if you agree with them or not, I don’t like to see her words chopped up and twisted to seem thoughtless and shallow in an out-of-context setting. That’s all. 

43 minutes ago, Coyote said:

It was not my intention to discuss intentions (or rather, whether or not people are doing this deliberately). While there does appear to be a common thread to the motivation, I think my argument stands regardless of whether people were sharing the misinformation knowingly or unknowingly. I also presume that a disproportionate amount if it may be unknowing.

 

However, since intentions are of interest apparently, that seems like a good reason to talk about this post by @arokaladin (dated Nov 26, 2019). The original post is melayneseahawk (a panromantic lesbian) asking why the term "queerplatonic" exists. Arokaladin reblogged the post with a response, and in it, they wrote, "Qprs/queerplatonic relationships are a kind of relationship that started in the aro community." In the replies of that same post, @raavenb2619 helpfully corrected them on that point, and Arokaldin wrote back, "I'm aware."

 

So when we've got someone issuing false statements about this and then responding to the corrections with "I'm aware," without apologizing or taking it back, what are we supposed to make of that? Should I assume Arokaladin is also mistaken about being aware (and that they simply wrote back without actually reading the post)?

 

Did you read her full reply, or just the first two words?

Quote

I’m aware, since it’s only recently that aros have been able to have a community outside of aro spaces. You could say the same for a lot of our terms, but I don’t believe in bringing up the ace community and ~all the things they’ve done for us~ every time we talk about our own terms just because of a technicality. You’re free to take issue with my wording, but that’s my feeling. Please don’t take this aggressively, I just want to have conversations about aros without having to talk about asexuality and reinforce the idea that we’re a smaller part of that community or that *technically* some of the aro community was until recent years confined to the ace community, because honestly it makes me sad. The coiner of the term queerplatonic talks abt not wanting it conflated with nonsexual romantic relationships that alloro ace people have. I agree with that.

What this means in regards to your point is up to interpretation, but I don't think it's at all fair to act like she just said "I'm aware" and left it at that, because that definitely gives the wrong impression.

I absolutely think you should tell him. It's important to be honest in a relationship and not mislead him into thinking you're something that you're not, for both his sake and yours. And yes, there is a decent chance he will say no, but... In the end, he has that right. I understand why you would want to try dating him, and I hope you get that chance, but ultimately he's not there for you to use to figure yourself out. Be honest with him about what you want, and maybe he'll say yes, and maybe he won't. If he doesn't, then respect that and move on- But I don't think it's fair to mislead him.

1 hour ago, Blazkovitz said:

I am aroallo, so definitely yes! It looks more joyful than the yellow-white-grey aro flag I've seen before. I've also made an "arrows" version:

 

 

Aroaces already have a different flag, this one is strictly for aroallos.

The thing is that what TripleA is proposing is using the allo aro flag to represent the entire aro community- doing away with the current aro flag, and using the allo aro flag to represent aroaces as well as allo aros. That wouldn’t be fair for anyone; Allo aros deserve to have a flag just for us without it being co-opted for other purposes (and erasing our identities in the process), and aroaces deserve to not be identified with a flag that’s meant to represent allosexuals. 

Hi, I designed this flag. Please DO NOT start using it to represent all aromantics. It was made to represent allo aros for a reason. Please do not go twisting the meaning of a flag that was meant for a specific group.

Oh also hey OP, aren't you the person who got banned from the Arocalypse discord server in record time for joining and immediately proclaiming how you don't think arospecs belong in the community, right in front of all our lovely arospec members? ?

Bruh. I’m probably one of the most stereotypical no-romance-ever aromantics, and honestly, I think this is pretty rude. Why shouldn’t arospec folks be included in our flag? They’re aro too. It’s called aro-spec, not some-attraction-sometimes-spec. Why are you so determined to separate yourself from them? Why does being inclusive of our arospec siblings upset you so much? If you feel so threatened by the thought of one single stripe out of five on the flag having something to do with arospecs, that’s a you problem. Now sit down and stop being exclusionary, because that attitude is NOT what this community is about.