Ikarus

Lookism and the halo effect Before I start let me briefly explain lookism, this post won’t make much sense without some context. For those who don’t know, lookism is a word used to describe the societal importance that looks have in the dating and sexual marketplace. Lookism is also closely tied with the halo effect, basically people tend to believe that looks also determine good personality, physicality, financial security etc. This article goes in depth on the effect https://alchemisjah.medium.com/the-halo-effect-is-ruining-your-love-life-e26e86f3bd9 Friendship vs Romantic relationships I have some articles and studies linked below about the importance of lookism and it’s effect on dating.( It seems to me a lot of the info studies hetero/allo relations) What’s the point of all this? Well, I wanted to pose a question, Do you think aromantics might be more likely to avoid lookism and the halo effect? Do you think lookism and the halo effect would have no significant difference between romantic and aromantic relationships? My opinion First off it is very difficult to find data on this lookism vs friendship question, not just because you know (the aro part) but because people care more about romantic relationships instead of friendships, therefore they study one more than the other. Qprs and polycules, forget about it, needle in a haystack to find that information. With that being said all I can do for the moment is hypothesize. It seems to me romance has always thrived off of lookism, I mean love at first sight, all the Frank Sinatra songs about a woman's looks I was forced to listen to when I was young at the dinner table, all the rock songs objectifying woman's looks. Also a lot of men probably start working out to get laid, or date someone. My limited experience, as a guy who has been friends with other guys, looks never came into the equation. There is a beauty to childhood friendships that enter adulthood now that I compare them with romantic pursuits people take when they get older. I never considered someones look, what mattered was if I got along with them, enjoyed their company, shared similar interests, could be myself around them, mutual respect, etc. I also got along well with my older brother, and that had nothing to do with looks. I am not trying to rat on all romantic people and say they are all superficial. I just think that allo people appear to have a stronger tendency to lookism, and being aro may possibly reduce the evolutionary bias of lookism. We all have some evolutionary biases based on our biology, but it seems to me that since aromantic’s don’t experience romantic attraction, they generally don’t look for romantic partners, and therefore these biases don’t factor in as heavily when compared to allos. That’s about it... What do you think? (Articles and research on lookism) (Lookism not just in men, also in women) https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html (okcupid experiment) https://qz.com/241479/okcupid-experimented-on-users-and-proved-everyone-just-looks-at-the-pictures/ (Importance of looks in dating) https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2005-11095-001

if this is the last time I see you, hope you find peace with yourself and with your partner. Take care!

Its great that you want to come out but… There are financial and social risks, especially with parents. If you still live with your parents, aren’t financially independent, or think they may help you pay for college then I would say give it a second thought. This is especially true with parents who hold strong conservative or religious values towards marriage and think it’s not a way but THE WAY to happiness. Even more so if they aren’t supportive of lgbtq people. Even more so if you have to live with them for a while. For example my parents believe God created marriage because it was bad that man “should be alone”. Genesis 2:18. If you are able to support yourself financially, and don’t have to live with them if coming out goes wrong, then thats the safest time to do it. How to do it… I have never come out to anyone, but I would recommend coming out gradually. Give a few hints by telling them what annoys you about romance. Test the waters this way to see how they react to this. After that you have already made some impression on them, so they will know you are different from others. You telling them your aromantic won’t come as such a shocker… It’s like vodka, just give someone a little bit at a time , not to much at once. Im referring to that stranger things season, the conspiracy man. Thats it, hopefully it goes well for you and I hope what I said doesn’t scare you off from it. If you think it’s the right time then by all means get it over with and hope for the best! Your very brave to consider this by the way. Hope it goes well for you!

@TheCloudyEnd I was afraid to read the comments from that reddit at first. Turns out everyone there is calling the poster out for damaging the aro community. It’s good to see that this harmful borderline plagiarism is being met with some repercussions. There where even people there defending real dreamsexuality (ace micro label).

Would you mind elaborating on this point… how would this work. I have an idea of what you mean, and I might partially relate to it. I mean back when I played vrchat a lot I used a snazzy cute anime avatar. It made me feel different after a while. I felt a little more giggly, playful, and this cute energy feeling. It was the first real gender questioning moment for me. Later on I realized those feels where not attached to an idea or feeling of womanhood. I enjoyed those qualities on their own. Those feels where a part of me as a person more than a gender. The avatar just made me express them more and feel new. Does this experience relate at all to what you mean when experiencing femininity without bringing in gender?

It would be interesting to hear from trans people about their experience and compare it with that of others. I agree with you, Trans people probably experience gender stronger.

Lifting weights, gaming and fps / competitive stuff/ car mechanic / is masculine. Wearing make up / being chatty / nurturing things / loves drama, now that is feminine. (This is the cultural attitude) These actions obviously do not always correlate in this way, and I suppose most people on the forum would agree with me on this point. Still a lot of people feel some type of connection to their gender even when they don’t fit into all of the societal constructs of gender. My experience of gender, ....... VOID. Im agender or genderless. For me I cannot see myself relating to this gender feeling people get when doing certain actions. I don’t understand why people think of themselves as a man or woman. Hypothetically, for the sake of argument, let’s say that a man does many actions that a woman does or vice versa, and still identifies as a man or woman, then that man / woman essence which remains seems super abstract or just odd to me... What is it? I go by he/him, but the way I see it my he/him pronoun feels the same way as someone calling me a biological male which is true scientifically. Hello male, Hello, yes I am a male. The topic of identity and persona is something I think about a lot in deeper ways as well but that’s another topic. I see myself deep down as a person who has no need for gender labels, or finding out how feminine or how masculine I am. 50/50 quarter masculine, Nope... Other people see themselves as people, who are this or that gender. I don’t experience the feel so I will probably never understand this. I made this post to better understand the majority of people who experience gender. What is it like for you? Is it important to you / how does it affect your choices / your career / your hobbies / does gender influence anything for you? Um... That’s about it...

I choose Ikarus because it’s fun to say, the letters look cool, I wanted a short username, and when I see it written and say it to myself I think, what a name. Its not Icarus (the dude who sank in the sea). The inspiration for the name came from my favorite synthwave youtube channel called Ikarus. Totally under rated gem by the way. Well.... that’s the story....

It makes some sense because of the similarities in color. Uploaded photo for reference. When I searched dreamsexual the first result was literally an aro flag….. yikes!!! What do you see first the aro flag? Wow, its nice to know this so I understand why someone might give me weird looks if I decided to wear aro patches or shirts in public for awareness… This flag is probably the mc dream flag because I saw vids today of people burning this particular flag in mc.

Its very artistic, deep, multifaceted, and sometimes confusing to understand what he is getting at. Especially the first music videos, it seemed like it was about more than typical aro stuff. Quarrel- Maybe societal power dynamics, Hegel master slave dialectic, and the master becoming a horse represents Hegelian synthesis between two opposites. The mermaid one, lonely world. So I thought it was about a bad romantic relationship, and the mermaid needed her independence. She needed to go back into the sea. Also it was making a point that romance doesn’t always solve loneliness, it can lead to negative outcomes. Self help tape was pure musical euphoria. Doomed was my favorite, I connected with it cause of how relatable it was. That deep feeling of loneliness and isolation we all feel/have felt, especially aros, finally music I understand. The matrix pod visuals where existential, emotional, and visually intriguing. The rest of them are cool but I am still confused on them. I like to analyze and decode stuff and Moses music is great for people who like studying metaphors, and artistic expression / reflection.

Aesthetic attraction is something I experience towards people, but also towards many different things. My pfp is a skeleton, and I love skeletons aesthetically. When I was little I called them bones guys. They look cool to me, that’s literally it. I also get aesthetic attraction to scenes I set up with my action figures, or the way I pose my bigger 12 inch figs. Thats a nice pose I say to myself. I already said this one on some other post but I love stomachs, other stuff -> faces, expressions, the way bodies look with clothes or fashion styles. For example crop tops, or thigh highs, I want to try wearing that someday but that’s a different subject. Hats, sometimes I look at fashion pics and think the hat really pulls it all together, I would wear that just because it looks good with that HAT! People look boring, or weird when nude. Specific things I don’t like is seeing a guys ding dong, or a womans full melon / other private region. If an artist was painting a semi nude person for me, I would prefer those parts covered, but no semi nudes... I prefer clothed pictures of people wearing some bad threads! People just look a lot better to me clothed than in the buff. Although when it comes to skeletons I prefer them without any clothes, cause bones are cool to look at. This is just my opinion, but woman look better than men, its in their faces which are less square / boxed like a Minecraft character. Womans faces have better bone structure or something, but that’s just my opinion.

Romantic repulsion: Kissing in a romantic context, flirting, lovey dovey stuff like holding hands. Private conversations between lovers in tv shows that get onto my fav shows somehow. I feel like a stalker when those parts come up. Then I say im not interested in your love life, fast forward, ok now back to the plot! Music lyrics really annoys me, anytime romance comes up can annoy me or make me go oh brother here we go again. I remember going to my older cousins wedding with my family when I was little. The kissing part was about to happen, I turned my head right away. I haven’t changed that policy since I was a young lad. I also relate to a lot of other peoples replies about feeling disgusted imagining yourself in romance, and with getting annoyed by character shipping. Sex repulsion, thats simple, genitals look gross / acts towards genitalia. How do people forget those are the same instruments for doing stinky gross activities in the can? On a pure aesthetic level, these THINGS look revolting, or bizarre! Sex itself is bizarre if you think about it… Romo repulsion feels: Uncomfortable, disgusted, annoyed, a cumbersome inconvenience. Feel like a stalker during shows, why do I need to see you two handling ur love life? Sex repulsion feels: Same first two from romo, confused about allos actions, laugh at the absurdity of sex, and allos actions are weird to me.

As an Apothi aro ace male, I have it easier, can’t imagine how annoyed I would be if I where a female aro ace for a week. I have come back to this old meme I created, and then posted a long time ago, and the meme gave me a new topic idea I haven't seen discussed here. I am surprised more people don't talk about how amatonormativity targets woman in particular. The way amaton. affects woman seems a lot more annoying to me compared to my own experience. One day I just happened to think about what my life would be like if I where a woman, and I realized that life would be a lot harder simply because of amaton. What really freaked me out was the thought of being asked out, or random people looking at me because they thought I looked sexy which would make me profoundly uncomfortable. I feel a little weird making this post because i'm a male, but here I am... To begin with, I think the way woman are portrayed in media / books due to amaton. definitely affects the way others see woman. Woman in media / books and my problem with how woman are portrayed in them 1. Friendships are rarely fully developed or payed attention to in movies (never between the opposite sex) 2. They are heavily romanticized or sexualized. 3. Romance and sex as uninteresting characteristics in others to me 4. Characteristics such as beauty are objectified / the protagonists prize 5. Defined positively and negatively by romance, sex, or a family role compared with men. Positive sense: Beautiful, enchanting, lovely, darling, sweet, a nurturing mother Negative sense / insults: Sexually / romantically inferior, infidelity, or lives a loose lewd lifestyle 6.. When woman's person is discussed, they are objectified, and not humanized while mens identities are recognized beyond their appearances. 7. woman are called old maids if they never marry regardless of their accomplishments. Men are seen as independent amazing people for their success, and are celebrated for their accomplishments, not scrutinized like woman are for not marrying, even seen as cool for being independent. Aromantic woman struggle a lot with Amatonormativity, here are 3 big problems 1. More likely to be asked out on a date by strangers than men who typically initiate the conversation / the pick up community / think flirting with woman is the mans job and its manly to know how to handle rejection blablabla.. 2. Society pressures woman into always looking sexually / romantically desirable to attract a date. 3. Woman are overly romanticized or sexualized by media and books Comments I got after an old meme post from aromatnic woman. “I sometimes feel very insecure and paranoid that someone would think that my body looks good in a sexual or romantic way. It just purely disgusts me and i don't know why! Even though I'm underage and not that attractive it still makes me a bit uncomfortable when I go out wearing skirts and thigh highs ( i like to beware them! They make me look pretty and cute, but sometiems too cute...).” “As someone who’s afab and who get’s called ma’am or miss a lot I’m really glad people don’t often flirt with me because I want none of it.” “I can be extremly uncomfordable. I hate beeing called sexy, or anything where the tone of voice implies that it means sexy. It makes me fell all gross and discusting. I hate having boobs for the same reason. They make some males act all.. Ewwu!” That just about wraps up my thoughts and research, what do all of you think? I would also appreciate any comments from woman on how amatonormativity affects you as an aromatic person. Oh... here is the meme I posted a while back on reddit.

Hello @Gege and welcome to the forum! Now to get into your question, and introduce myself to you. I identify as an Apothi Aro, the apothi word means repulsed to romance. After reading your post I can see that your experience reflects a lot of my own. I do not enjoy romance in any format whether its movies, books, songs, and kissing scenes in media make me very uncomfortable, and I have to turn away, and shiver in disgust until its over, or I skip. If I skip it I usually skip the next few scenes, so I usually wait until its over haha. Watch what you feel comfortable watching, and read what you want to read. Its your life, do what you wanna do! With all that said, I just want to comment on this. By ghosting do you mean avoiding all contact with your friend, or not reading their writings? If you just don’t want to read their work, I can understand that. If you are avoiding contact completely, that’s ok as well, maybe you would feel more comfortable with aro friends( If you can find them in real life). I don’t know much about your friend, but if my friends that I rarely see anymore started talking about their dates all the time, and wanted me to review their romantic plays, then I wouldn’t be as interested in their company. Although I don’t think you necessarily have to completely ghost your friend, just don’t read their writings if they make you uncomfortable, but again its up to you because I don’t know the person, or what your relationship is like with your friend. Romance can make its way into almost any show, which is extremely annoying, but I would just wait until its over, but only if the romance is brief. A lot of romance in the shows I watch is very brief, doesn’t take up the whole plot, and I usually just fast forward to the next scene. Try finding shows where romance isn’t the main plot, and then you only have to deal with brief random instances of it you can fast forward if you want. But again, I usually play more video games than watching movies, so im no expert in the movie field... To sum up, I am Apothi Aro, you remind me of myself a lot, and you might be Apothi as well. Consider that micro label, here is an article on Apothiromantics https://ezgender.fandom.com/wiki/Apothiromantic, but I call myself Apothi Aro, less wordy, and it sounds better. Hopefully I can help you out in some way, bye!

Just watched some of Iris’s videos, and was hella inspired. Finally my fashion future is becoming more real and less theoretical. Crop tops, now I like that. Have you considered crop top sweat shirts? Those look cool… Iris’s gender euphoric outfit made me go, hold up! Why didn’t I think of wearing a tied t-shirt underneath a crop top. So simple, subtle look, brilliant! Just wanted to share my excitement, and thanks again @sol!

After being on this forum, I know there are those who want to appear androgynous. What does it look like for you? For me… Mens fashion often looks very boxed in and uniform. Womens fashion looks alright… for women… but not for me. Thats my opinion… Ok for reference. im amab, im pretty skinny, long legs, long brown/ black straight hair. Some ideas ive already got. I dont think I would mind leggings, painted nails, or a little make up, just not a lot or else I will look like a clown. I think stomachs look aesthetically pleasing, but dont know how to show off my stomach. No skirts / dresses, only typical female type clothing is leggings/ small amount of makeup. thats me so far, other than that Ive got nothing. For the rest of you i’m very curious about what you would call androgynous.

Going off nonmercis point, I would also encourage for you to talk with her about how she is feeling. It seems to me that your wife is desperate for some alone time. I would encourage her to have some since she seems very stressed out and over burdened. Maybe help her find some ways to have enjoyable recreation time. I think it was just a 2, because she already seemed a little desperate, stressed, and frazzled. If you talked to her about how she was feeling, she would probably appreciate that. The reason she could have lied is she didn’t want to appear stressed and wanted you to think she has been fine. Remind her that we all need some time to decompress and its fine for her to be open with you about it. That you won’t see her as any less for wanting time for herself and feeling stressed.

For the record I never tried to define lesbian kissing as a non sexual kink for me /my own experience / reasons

@DeltaV Thats the fellows real name don’t ya know!

If you felt comfortable telling your friends that your aro-ace, and if they accept that, then coming out as Demigirl or agender shouldn’t seem that surprising to your friends. And if they don’t invalidate your other orientations, then they probably wont react negatively towards your gender orientation.

Well, I guess I wanted to add one more thing to this topic... I mentioned above that I don’t experience sexual fantasies, so when I talk about this next umm subject, I don’t fantasize about it sexually... Lesbian kissing... I don’t find it romantic or sexual, I just enjoy watching lesbians kiss. Lesbian kissing is probably one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. How could I forget to include this on my last post?? Well I feel a little weird that I enjoy this so much, and I’m not lesbian, and don’t even enjoy it for romantic or sexual reasons, I just watch it... Weird right?

Heres my take on it. Dating is getting to first base, a romantic relationship, and sexual intercourse is reaching second base. Dating: People go on dates to discover their personal and romantic compatibility with the other or others. Romantic relationship: The two find themselves compatible, and spend more time. At this base Allos usually say they have a more “serious relationship”. This romantic relationship is about getting to know the other person to know if they want to be engaged with them. 3rd base engaged Home-plate married Hope that helps, btw I learned a lot of this going around the bases lingo from a Seinfeld episode.

A while back on this forum, we where talking about amatonormativity. Someone said when they first heard the term aro their friend said it meant psychopath. I suppose their friend deduced that psychopath’s dont love, and aros feel no romantic attraction, and thus dont love, therefore aros are synonymous with psychopath’s . I don’t have to say how completely dehumanizing, and demoralizing this toxic babble is. I mean my goodness, do people really think just because your aro, then something must not just be wrong with you, but that your essentially a classic movie villain, muhahaha!!! They are right, darn how could the allos know I remained single and heartless because Im secretly plotting my rise towards global domination and to plot revenge against all who have damaged my ego. Im being sarcastic… Why post this? Because this idea, is perpetuated a lot, think about it. The hero has a love interest, and friends, the villain is typically single, and feels no “love/romantic feels, preoccupied by ambitions and successes. Also, now that I think about it, this idea makes me afraid of coming out, just a little. The aro=psychopath has to be one of the most dehumanizing amatonormative slander I have ever had the misfortune of hearing.. What are your thoughts??

Have any of you heard that song, ever move you make, every step you take, every smile you fake, very breath you make I’ll be watching you. Well that song use to freak me out when I was a kid, and today the idea of people thinking about someone everyday, and losing sleep over it makes me feel sorry for allo’s and also afraid of them. Since I am a biological male, I don’t have to worry as much as aro woman do when it comes to being asked out. Usually guys ask the ladies out right? Well, I hope so, I’m not to good at romo culture. Anyway, I hope no one takes my no, or lack of interest in them, and becomes more obsessed with me. If I ignore woman, then will they think I am playing hard to get, and become obsessed with me? Yikes! Anyway, what do you people think about romantic obsession towards people, and how this is seen in romantic culture. Are you afraid of someone bothering or stalking you, or does the idea freak you out?