Aromanticism and being considered « immature »

[LeGens]

It's been a long time since I been on Arocalypse and I come back directly with a vent. Sorry about that, but I also feel like a few of us can relate so...

I turned eighteen a few months ago. I never had a romantic partner. I never felt that way and I never felt the need for romance. I am not out as aroace (and I probably never will be, both because I probably would be considered confused by my family and because coming out as always felt too formal for me). So, of course, I have been asked often « do you have a crush on someone? », « do you have a partner yet? », and every other question like that.

I have a sister five years younger than me who got with her first boyfriend at the end of last school year. Since then, my whole family (including my sister) are pestering me because she has a boyfriend at 13 and I never dated at all. I heard the term 'immature' a lot. It made me realize how much I hate amatonormativity and the concept of immaturity. Of course, I am not the most mature person out there, but the fact that recently the fact that I don't have a romantic partner is the reason why I am considered immature by everyone is what gets me even more angry. 

Anyway, I hate the fact that romance is one basic need to acquire maturity in the eyes of society. You can study, work, travel far from home alone, but it will always be like you are missing something or like if you are 'not ready' to be in a relationship. 

[Holmbo]

That sucks! I'm sorry you have to experience this. I agree it's so annoying that dating is considered a must in terms of maturity by so many people.

If you're into podcasts I would advice trying Solo - the single persons guide to a remarkable life. The guy who hosts it really struggled for a long time with the expectations of dating. He's allo so it's not about aromanticism (although there's at least one episode with an aro guest) but still it's very relatable for aros. For example he talks about how adulthood really should be considered someone who can parent themselves. It shouldn't be connected to marriage or having children like it often is.

[DeltaAro]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:20 AM, LeGens said:

Anyway, I hate the fact that romance is one basic need to acquire maturity in the eyes of society. You can study, work, travel far from home alone, but it will always be like you are missing something or like if you are 'not ready' to be in a relationship. 

I sometimes wonder if I would feel less immature if I had a high-stakes job like surgeon, firefighter, air controller, and so on. Everything I do is meticulously reviewed. And then tested by automatic testing and then human testers. Every error I produce will be caught by this paranoid process.

And it's about math, which is basically like an advanced version of what I do since I was six years old, which was also math. Not a totally new thing in an exciting environment. Sorry, if that sounds like humblebragging, but I mean it.

But it seems work is at least irrelevant for society, and it really just boils down to romantic stuff.

[Guest]

Allos are the immature ones because they do dumb things in the name of love and they date at a young age anyway, their brains aren't developed yet anyway and they're immature because they can't accept people who are different.

[Lovebird]

1 hour ago, DeathlyAngel said:

Allos are the immature ones because they do dumb things in the name of love and they date at a young age anyway, their brains aren't developed yet anyway and they're immature because they can't accept people who are different.

I really don't like this current trend insulting allos for doing absolutely nothing considered actually 'bad'. I dated a bit at a young age and I'm arospec, does this make me immature or bad to you?

And can we please stop using brain development as some kind of insult, especially if we're talking about adults? As a mentally disabled adult that is in a relationship, I am capable of making my own decisions and especially choosing on if I want a dating life. 

Calling out ableism within the aro community is so exhausting. 

[Holmbo]

Agreed @Lovebirda

 

Also, all people are different people. Saying that all allos is a certain way is pretty silly overall.

[DeltaAro]

On 9/18/2023 at 8:47 AM, Lovebird said:

I really don't like this current trend insulting allos for doing absolutely nothing considered actually 'bad'.

I'm all for being nice towards alloromantics. But I also dislike those convoluted justifications where people try to find some oppressed group (like queer alloromantics) you accidentally hurt by bickering and ranting about allos.

Well, the focus of repression was always firmly on sexuality. Not romance. Like in Victorian times they really loved this ideal of same-gender "romantic friendship" (think Mina and Lucy in Dracula) when at the same time homosexuality was highly scandalous at best and punishable by years of hard labor at worst.

And sex is still the focus today. We have the abortion ban in southern US states (absolutely shocking since Roe v. Wade was the law of the land for fifty years!). Before that FOSTA-SESTA, or in Europe the creeping Nordic model or nowadays Orwellian-named "equality model" of sex work etc.

It's always, really always the "sex part" that gets targeted by criminal law, never the "romance part".

So yes, let's be nice to alloromantics. I'm all for it. But we should do it out of basic decency. And don't invent those weird stories about "romantic oppression". Contrary to sexual oppression, that's not a thing.

Also, the insulting and ranting here and on other aro online places is rather mild compared to what other groups do. I constantly come across stuff like "the problem with the male suicide rate is that it's not high enough LOL" on Twitter as some edgy satire ("it's ok because men are privileged").

If aros behaved like this, we would make fun and tease alloromantics, who are lovesick or who were harmed by romantic partners etc. I haven't observed something like this.

Edited September 20, 2023 by DeltaAro

[roboticanary]

Moderator comment:

Our terms of service indicate that we do not tolerate hateful, abusive or disparaging content and is clear that 'alloromantics' is an identifiable category in this.

In clear terms, general disparaging comments aimed at 'alloromantics' are against our terms of service.

[dewy]

I can relate though I'm grayro and interested in dating so it's a bit different. I felt immature because all my friends had crushes or were dating so I made myself have crushes and be in relationships that didn't go well at all. I like dating now but I wish there wasn't this pressure - looking back I wasn't that into my past partners it was more the idea of romance, and the feeling of obligation to date was not fun at all. To me dating is about having fun and figuring out what you like. Now that I graduated I feel more freedom to explore love. I started dating again for the first time in years and it's going well so far.

[DeltaAro]

I'd like to clarify what I mean with "be nice to alloromantics". Of course, attacking innocent persons for no reason than that they're different from you is inexcusable. Refraining from that isn't "nice" but the bare minimum of civilized interaction.

But then there's this constant ranting and bickering about romance, where no person is directly targeted. While I find this very relatable, for people who strongly identify with romance (probably most alloromantics), this can be bewildering, insulting and hurtful.

So with "being nice to allos" I meant this extra step of applying some sensitivity regarding their feelings.

On 9/18/2023 at 8:47 AM, Lovebird said:

Calling out ableism within the aro community is so exhausting. 

Though the love = madness trope wasn't invented by aros. You could say it's part of an ableist shared culture, and aros just (unsurprisingly) picked it up.

[Lovebird]

On 9/21/2023 at 5:52 AM, DeltaAro said:

I'm all for being nice towards alloromantics. But I also dislike those convoluted justifications where people try to find some oppressed group (like queer alloromantics) you accidentally hurt by bickering and ranting about allos.

Well, the focus of repression was always firmly on sexuality. Not romance. Like in Victorian times they really loved this ideal of same-gender "romantic friendship" (think Mina and Lucy in Dracula) when at the same time homosexuality was highly scandalous at best and punishable by years of hard labor at worst.

And sex is still the focus today. We have the abortion ban in southern US states (absolutely shocking since Roe v. Wade was the law of the land for fifty years!). Before that FOSTA-SESTA, or in Europe the creeping Nordic model or nowadays Orwellian-named "equality model" of sex work etc.

It's always, really always the "sex part" that gets targeted by criminal law, never the "romance part".

So yes, let's be nice to alloromantics. I'm all for it. But we should do it out of basic decency. And don't invent those weird stories about "romantic oppression". Contrary to sexual oppression, that's not a thing.

Also, the insulting and ranting here and on other aro online places is rather mild compared to what other groups do. I constantly come across stuff like "the problem with the male suicide rate is that it's not high enough LOL" on Twitter as some edgy satire ("it's ok because men are privileged").

If aros behaved like this, we would make fun and tease alloromantics, who are lovesick or who were harmed by romantic partners etc. I haven't observed something like this.

"Romance oppression" is a thing though. Queer, disabled and interracial couples have been bullied, mocked and harassed in the streets for simply holding hands - disabled people cannot get married without being forced to sacrifice their pensions because the government thinks we're already useless enough. Attraction to the same gender is still considered a mental illness among conservative circles.

[DeltaAro]

On 9/26/2023 at 1:29 AM, Lovebird said:

"Romance oppression" is a thing though.

I'm aware that this was a very controversial take. But I thought about it a long time and don't give up yet. 🙂

Everyone knows sexual oppression exists, it's pervasive and it's everywhere. "Romantic oppression" OTOH is something aros / aces postulated for the sake of symmetry*.

* "Romantic oppression" gets you 250 Google search results, while "sexual oppression" gets you 150,000.

But we still abide to the dichotomy of "good sex" and "bad sex" - with "bad sex" of course I don't mean really bad, and instead consensual / solo activities without any direct harm.

Spoiler

e.g. using dolls

It's just enough to postulate some indirect social harm without evidence, and it's fair game to shame and insult other people.

Basically, we overcame one flawed idea, the "unnaturalness" (Thomas Aquinas), and replaced it with another one, "objectification" (Immanuel Kant).

I don't see an equivalent "romantic oppression" in this sense.

Of course, we can say that aros are victims of "romantic oppression". But it's not like aros do "bad romance". Instead, they don't do it at all or not enough. Therefore, amatonormativity is a far better term

On 9/26/2023 at 1:29 AM, Lovebird said:

Queer, disabled and interracial couples have been bullied, mocked and harassed in the streets for simply holding hands

It is assumed that romantic couples have sex, so I suspect sexual oppression is in fact behind it.

That's also why the LGBTQ+ movement of the 2010s de-emphasized sex and heavily emphasized romantic love.

Some overly sneaky conservatives countered it with "Loving another man isn’t sinful, engaging in unnatural sexual acts is sinful" (straight from the horses' mouth).

On 9/26/2023 at 1:29 AM, Lovebird said:

disabled people cannot get married without being forced to sacrifice their pensions because the government thinks we're already useless enough.

I don't believe the motivation here was policing romance like sex is policed all the time.

Some of these laws are very old and go back to times when eugenics was acceptable. It might have been intended as a blunt instrument to discourage disabled people getting children.

[The Newest Fabled Creature]

I hate the immaturity argument, because what parent would want to bum-rush their own child, or children, to completely trust someone of their own age range to not hurt them, or Hell, take advantage of them even, because middle school relationships and high school relationships are kind of traumatic to be honest? It's immature of the parents to do that to their own kid(s), because if you're going to treat your own family like that then why not take sole responsibility of teaching your kid(s) to look for specific warning signs in relationships? Or Hell, take responsibility for your own kid's heart being broken, or their boundaries being breached, because you pushed them to find a partner?