Manic not-quite-love and how to avoid becoming evil?

[Guest notquitelimerence]

Ok so I know what I experience is not romantic attraction, but I do experience a form of manic attraction, as described here: https://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch16-sfl/six-types-of-love.html

I become obsessed with people, sometimes.  This obsession is not always sexual, but it can be.  It happens after I’ve done research into who a person is and they meet a list of criteria.  The criteria are at least one out of: 1) Having things in common with myself that I am either proud of or am cultivating self-compassion for, 2) Embodying a deeply-held abstract principle or belief in my mind, 3) Personifying a group to which I feel a sense of meaningful allegiance and want to be accepted by, such as True American or Real Professional Writer or Non-Poseur Artist.  It doesn’t require reciprocation but it never involves a willingness to self sacrifice and I never lose sight of the flaws of my obsession.  If they don’t reciprocate it doesn’t bother me as long as there isn’t complete rejection.  I get weirdly fixated in the same way I fixate on my other aspergers special-interests.  The trouble begins when it is reciprocated though.

I get a buyer’s high and it never fades.  I get possessive.  The possibility of my obsession not being available one day is worse than not having it at all.  It’s a selfish thing.  I have my shiny object and it causes this huge dopamine rush that lasts forever as long as my shiny object is at hand.  This rush doesn’t happen until/unless I have permanently “claimed” whoever I’m obsessing over.

It’s the same feeling I had about new toys, as a kid.  I never got bored of them.  When I got them for my birthday, the chemical reaction in my brain caused permanent changes in my emotional patterns.

If the objects of obsession do something to hurt me or betray what they represent to me somehow, my obsessive interest switches off like a light and it’s like it never mattered.

But once I get that dopamine rush, I become capable of doing the unthinkable without hesitation.  The object itself almost doesn’t matter beyond what it means/does to me.  Example: I have a car!  I have a gecko!  I have a new jacket! I have a dremel!  Therefore I am one step closer to invincible and can do whatever I want with said things, yay extensions of my greatness that are mine and you can’t borrow them because Me.  I drive fast in my car and saw things with my dremel for fun because I can, and as long as car is in my garage and dremel is in my toolbox where I left them, I feel like I own the world.  Gecko does not demand anything of me that it greatly inconveniences me to provide, just a clean tank and crickets.  I can provide it grudgingly and gecko slurps them up without a care.  Cars don’t care if I curse and grumble while changing their oil, as long as I do, the car goes.

It’s like I’ve permanently augmented myself, once the unfamiliarity/insufficient knowledge/risk of not being able to gain and keep the thing is out of the way.  It never gets old.

But when it comes to people, it seems they resent being possessed and kept available at all times, and get emotionally hurt by my refusal to inconvenience myself for inconvenience’s sake.  People seem hurt by it whenever I don’t manage to hide my obsessions, or they take it the wrong way and think it’s about them rather than me (and end up hurt when I don’t compromise or inconvenience myself for them), or disturbed by the intensity or offended by the way I use it as a means to create mania and invincibility in myself, rather than looking after them.

It feels good, for me, assuming I can acquire and be sure that I keep the means of this high.  It makes me happy and life is better with it.  But it seems to make people see me as evil and reject me, if they find out how I react.

Is it evil?  How do I go about being honest and possibly attaining this through people without hurting them or making them hate me?  What am I doing wrong?  I try to be clear about boundaries and back off if someone would not be a worthwhile acquisition due to various incompatibilities, but they still tend to act insulted and disgusted, like they’ve just discovered I’m a monster.  I mean it really genuinely seems to do emotional harm to them, if they find out I had the slightest interest in keeping them in my home and watching their every movement because they remind me of me, or are the Ideal Man of a political party.  Why is that insulting?  I mean they don’t have to be perfect, ideals can be imperfect.  It doesn’t have to be sexual either so it’s not placing a whole bunch of expectations in that regard either.  I am confused by this and feel like there’s something wrong with the way I react.  Do I have to give up this source of dopamine high in order to avoid being an evil person?  It doesn’t work if there’s the possibility that the obsessed-over could leave me, but if they insist on the ability to leave I can turn the obsession off and prefer to do so.

[Blake]

19 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

But when it comes to people, it seems they resent being possessed and kept available at all times, and get emotionally hurt by my refusal to inconvenience myself for inconvenience’s sake.  People seem hurt by it whenever I don’t manage to hide my obsessions, or they take it the wrong way and think it’s about them rather than me (and end up hurt when I don’t compromise or inconvenience myself for them), or disturbed by the intensity or offended by the way I use it as a means to create mania and invincibility in myself, rather than looking after them.

It feels good, for me, assuming I can acquire and be sure that I keep the means of this high.  It makes me happy and life is better with it.  But it seems to make people see me as evil and reject me, if they find out how I react.

Ok, hello there mate, that is the first thing. So...let me see if I can explain to you the reasoning behind the actions of those who reject you or see you as evil. You have to know that we are humans, and we are different from one another. Would you like someone to treat you the same way you treat that someone? You are seeing a person (and please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect, I am only trying to see your point of view) as an object. You are comparing a person and their affection to you one way, that you are the one getting that rush, that spotlight. And this is not something evil, it is what it is, but an interaction should be two-way, that if you are getting something, you are giving something in return. So it is not wrong to ask for things, but you have to be disposed to give  something too, and that something is what you are describing as your available time, or that inconvenience time.

Think it like this: "You are gifted two wooden swords and your friend two beyblade. Both of you are ecstatic with your respective gifts and want to play. They start with your gift and you play all day. But at the moment of going to their gift, you don't want to change. Yo want to continue playing with yours eternally, now how would your friend feel? They spent their time to make you happy, but it is not going the other way. How would you feel if that where you, the friend with the beyblade and not the wooden swords, that you gave your time but now it is not going the other way around.

20 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

It feels good, for me, assuming I can acquire and be sure that I keep the means of this high.  It makes me happy and life is better with it.  But it seems to make people see me as evil and reject me, if they find out how I react.

Of course it feels good, but it is because the satisfaction is just yours, the other person is not gaining anything. That other person is probably hurt because they too want something in return. And if someone hurted you, you would at the very least put some distance from that person, to heal yourself. And if the behavior doesn't change, why would you stay with someone that is actively making you sad?

 

20 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

Is it evil?  How do I go about being honest and possibly attaining this through people without hurting them or making them hate me?  What am I doing wrong?  I try to be clear about boundaries and back off if someone would not be a worthwhile acquisition due to various incompatibilities, but they still tend to act insulted and disgusted, like they’ve just discovered I’m a monster.  I mean it really genuinely seems to do emotional harm to them, if they find out I had the slightest interest in keeping them in my home and watching their every movement because they remind me of me, or are the Ideal Man of a political party.  Why is that insulting?  I mean they don’t have to be perfect, ideals can be imperfect.  It doesn’t have to be sexual either so it’s not placing a whole bunch of expectations in that regard either.  I am confused by this and feel like there’s something wrong with the way I react.  Do I have to give up this source of dopamine high in order to avoid being an evil person?  It doesn’t work if there’s the possibility that the obsessed-over could leave me, but if they insist on the ability to leave I can turn the obsession off and prefer to do so.

 

Is it evil? Not really, evil is just a word used to describe that you want to purposely hurt that person. I do not think that is the case, although that does not mean that you are not hurting. If you want people to not avoid you, you have to put your grain of salt too, have an equal exchange. Talk with that other person and try to go for a happy medium, it doesn't have to be perfect, but both parties should agree on the rules of the game to be fair. I hope this could help you mate. Cheers

[Holmbo]

Quote

It doesn’t work if there’s the possibility that the obsessed-over could leave me,

Then it can never work. Because there's always that possibility. The ability to leave is in every relationship unless it's a forced one.

[Guest notquitelimerence]

Would you likesomeone to treat you the same way you treat that someone?

Well yes, tbh!  I would not mind being treated as a resource or object by another person.  I would want them to.

So it is not wrong to ask for things, but you have to be disposed to give  something too, and that something is what you are describing as your available time, or that inconvenience time.

I can give things, but not things that benefit others more than myself (inconvenient things.) I wouldn’t want anyone else to do that either.  If I am also a shiny object to someone else, then are they not gaining by keeping me around all the time, as I gain by keeping them around?

How would you feel if that where you, the friend with the beyblade and not the wooden swords, that you gave your time but now it is not going the other way around.

This confuses me...I would be rather hurt if they were playing with the swords to humor me instead of wanting to play with the swords instead of the beyblades.  If we both get a sword how is it unequal unless they like the beyblades more?

The ability to leave is in every relationship unless it's a forced one.

But what if I never want to leave, then giving up the ability to leave wouldn’t be bad.  If the other person didn’t ever want to leave then what are they losing by giving up leaving?  Unless one of us changes or finds out something unpleasant about the other.  That is what the researching is for, and if neither I nor the object of obsession want to change then there would be no risk of a reason to leave.

[Blake]

I understand that you wouldn't mind being treated as another resource, but yo have to think of the other person. It is fine to see each other as tools, but you both have to agree to it, there has to be communication and understanding. Now, in any exchange, from most basic to complex, one party loses more than the other, and that means that the opposite is also true. It is extremely unlikely that there is an absolute equal exchange.

What is important is the way you are looking at it, you are deciding for the other person the amount of "worth" that is keeping you around. That is up to the other person to decide, to weight how much is he gain of keeping you around. In the case that the other person decides that they are gaining more than you, would that make you happy or not? Since they are gaining more than you, but that also means that your "worth" is more than you thought it was.

Allow me to explain the example better, it is not about the object, but of the intention. You have an item and your friend another, both of you play with the item but in order, first yours then your friend. This means that when you finish with the first, you would go for the second item, but then you do not want to finish playing with the first item. Meaning that you refuse to play with the second item because you do not want to, although it was previously decided that you would play with A, then B. Analyze it from both point of view. From the kid who wants to continue playing and from the kid that suddenly got told that the rules where change. How would you feel being kid A, and how would you feel being kid B.

For the last, it is about free will. You have free will, I have free will, each person has free will. You cannot decide for the other person, and also people change opinions all the time. So if I like tacos today, it doesn't mean that I will like tacos every single day after that, I may get tired of tacos, I may not, but that decision is up to me and only time will tell. There has to be an ability to feel completely fine in saying: "Ok, this was fun, but now I want to change/leave" If you do not have that freedom, then the relationship is not a healthy one and should be terminated.

[WaywardHeroine]

It sounds to me like you are expecting a lot out of your potential partners.  Not very many people feel comfortable with being treated like objects.  Now, a relationship can be whatever you want it to be, but you should understand that a lot of people are not seeking relationships in order to have something to possess.  Before entering a relationship, both parties should make it very clear what they are expecting out of it.  Finding another person who shares that exact desire to be possessed/possess the other party would be difficult, which is where compromise comes in.

You have to understand that looking for a partner is not like shopping for a car or a pet.  You can't just feed and water them like your gecko, because humans need more than that to be happy.  Your partner needs to be getting something out of the relationship too, and you have to accept that you're probably not going to find someone that enjoys that feeling of possession as much as you do.  For you, this means that if you truly desire that companionship, you're going to have to compromise.  You will probably HAVE to inconvenience yourself in order to provide something enjoyable out of the experience for the other person.  

I don't think any of the feelings you described are evil.  It's only evil if you are intentionally hurting others without trying to improve yourself, which is clearly not the case here.  The ideal situation would be for you to find a partner who gets the same dopamine rush you do, but as people are so different from each other, it's a very slim chance.  This is why relationships are so hard.  People can be frustrating, especially those you care about.  Relationships often require both parties to make sacrifices for the sake of the other, even inconvenient ones. 

Also, I dunno, maybe look into some kink communities?  There are people who enjoy that kind of objectification.    

But, regardless, the words of the day are compromise and honesty.

 

[Guest notquitelimerence]

If all people on earth are that way then I don’t like people. I think something is missing in my brain because I can’t make sense of this mindset.  

Why does it matter whether the other person gains more or less as long as both they and I gain what they and I are after?  As for the analogy, I wouldn’t promise to play with a thing I didn’t like so I wouldn’t be changing any rules.  Sure it’s not nice to agree to rules and then break them but then why agree to begin with?  Unless this analogy references an unspoken social rule that people have to do things they don’t like or else it’s an inadequate gesture...if that’s the case it’s a very sad social rule and I want to hide in a cave and not have friends.

Could it also be argued that it’s unhealthy to enable acting on whims and avoid permanent things because one might change one’s mind?  Free will isn’t absolute, and having free will doesn’t mean that will can’t be used to decide “this is mine forever no takebacks.”  Are no return policies at stores unhealthy?  If someone made a rule saying I would be bludgeoned if I ever wore a wool jumper, but I don’t like wool jumpers and am sure I never will, I wouldn’t feel stifled by it.  Even if I did, I wouldn’t want to change my mind because I like being a person who does not wear wool jumpers.  I hardly ever change my mind.

Plz dont take my reply the wrong way, it is very useful information, but I guess I have to think about it a lot more because I’m running headfirst into a theory-of-mind gap with a large amount of “wtf i dont get it aaaaah!” and thats my own fault.  It’s so unlike how I think.  Not sure I can contribute anything more productive other than to say thank you for your efforts to explain but it is going way over my head.

[Momo]

5 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

Why does it matter whether the other person gains more or less as long as both they and I gain what they and I are after?  As for the analogy, I wouldn’t promise to play with a thing I didn’t like so I wouldn’t be changing any rules.  Sure it’s not nice to agree to rules and then break them but then why agree to begin with?  Unless this analogy references an unspoken social rule that people have to do things they don’t like or else it’s an inadequate gesture...if that’s the case it’s a very sad social rule and I want to hide in a cave and not have friends.

People's likes and dislikes change over time. Someone can agree to something they genuinely want at the time and then some time later (lets say, 2-5 years) it is reasonably common that they may not like it any more. As an example, in my late teens and early 20's I genuinely enjoyed the romantic relationships I was in. In the last 3 years, I discovered that I was aro and I'd been treating my partners rather poorly, not out of malice or anything else, we just... drifted apart every time because I didn't have that attraction. And after coming to the realisation I was aro, romantic things make me feel icky - a reminder of the harm I've caused in the past, I guess. No one is capable of making a promise over all time. Situations, circumstances and tastes all change and cause our decisions to changes as a result.

5 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

Could it also be argued that it’s unhealthy to enable acting on whims and avoid permanent things because one might change one’s mind?  Free will isn’t absolute, and having free will doesn’t mean that will can’t be used to decide “this is mine forever no takebacks.”  Are no return policies at stores unhealthy?  If someone made a rule saying I would be bludgeoned if I ever wore a wool jumper, but I don’t like wool jumpers and am sure I never will, I wouldn’t feel stifled by it.  Even if I did, I wouldn’t want to change my mind because I like being a person who does not wear wool jumpers.  I hardly ever change my mind.

It absolutely could, and in fact there are multiple syndromes described in these terms. Too much avoidance is just as bad as too much persistence and rigidity.

[Jedi]

 I am sorry that I can't be as understanding here as the people above me, but here is how I react:

7 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

Free will isn’t absolute, and having free will doesn’t mean that will can’t be used to decide “this is mine forever no takebacks.”

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH

17 hours ago, Guest notquitelimerence said:

But what if I never want to leave, then giving up the ability to leave wouldn’t be bad.  If the other person didn’t ever want to leave then what are they losing by giving up leaving?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH

This is treating people like things, and no it isn't ok. I think these dynamics you describe, with this level of possessiveness can be alright in certain circumstances, I think there is a level of this is BDSM spaces but my understanding is that it always comes with an understanding that if someone gets uncomfortable and don't want to be possessed anymore, there is a safe way out. If you don't want to be evil, imo, the 'no takebacks' part is just out of the question.

Since you are this way, it is likely that some other human on earth is like this as well, there are a lot of us, after all. It is completely possible that you can find someone else who is also this way and be happy together. But I think for most humans, a relationship like you describe it would be unhealthy to the point of being directly abusive. Even if that isn't your intention.

On 5/12/2020 at 9:20 PM, Guest notquitelimerence said:

Do I have to give up this source of dopamine high in order to avoid being an evil person?  It doesn’t work if there’s the possibility that the obsessed-over could leave me, but if they insist on the ability to leave I can turn the obsession off and prefer to do so.

I think this is the crux of it. There is no non-evil way of making sure a person is your possession forever and never leaves you, there just isn't. You can get the possession bit through kink communities, sure, but not the never leave part. Even if someone has the intention of staying with you forever, they can change. Just as marriages are entered with the intention of lasting forever and still can end up in divorce. And there is no way of keeping that person with you, if they want to leave, that is morally defensible.  You have to be aware of that. 

You clearly don't mean to hurt anyone, and really, I am in over my head here too. We don't really understand eachothers mindsets, I think. This is all pretty big, so perhaps it would be worth it for you to bring this to some manner of psychology professional, as we are just random people on the internet, and I don't know how much help we can really be.

[yurihands]

Hey, as someone who has BPD I may be able to explain what's going on with you.

A lot of borderlines experience something called a "favorite person" (FP for short) it's when you obsess over someone so much, you basically dedicate all your time and energy into them. Favorite people aren't always romantic or sexual interests, they can legit be anyone you know.

You are not evil for experiencing this, I can't sit here and armchair diagnose you with BPD but I just want to let you know that. People with this condition are often stigmatized as being evil or monsters, and it's pretty messed up!! Of course there are times where our behavior can be pretty problematic, this is why we need to get the treatment and the help we need for this. 

Having a favorite person can be quite exhausting, not just to the people, but also ourselves. It's like you can never get this person out of your head, you're constantly messaging them and doing whatever it takes to get their attention, no matter how over the top. You basically burn yourself out too and it's not healthy for either one involved! We also experience pretty bad abandonment issues and other types of trauma. DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) is a type of treatment that was made for people with BPD. I personally do EMDR and it helps me understand the root of my obsessive behaviors a lot!

BTW, hypersexuality is one of the symptoms for BPD! (this can also play into manic as well for people with bipolar)

Edited May 29, 2020 by yurihands