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nonmerci

I finally get why the "ace and aro" thing bothers me so much

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Hi all! I was reading the discussion here about should AVEN be involved in arocalypse or not. My purpose is of course not to start again the discussion here, as it was locked so we can calm down, but to say what I understood reading the discussion : why the "ace and aro" thing can be problematic.

So basically, the discussion was like this : "asexuality and aromanticism has always been tied" - "but we don't want it to be" - "it is interconnected" - "we don't feel that way" (that is a simplification of course). And this is how I finally get why even if I am aro and ace, I was always sceptical to see the two community always tied together.

 

I think that seeing that aro felt not comfortable, the asexual community decided to be more inclusive. And that's why now, all ace events wants to be "ace and aro" : they fear that if they don't, they will be seen as not inclusive, or discriminatory against aros. This is well-intentionned. They are glad to share ressources for aros too.

But doing that, they don't get that the aro community wants and needs more independance, because they are trying to be inclusive. Probably, they don't get problematics like how aros will be seen as a subcategory of aces - probably because aces are sharing the fact that all aces are not aros, but don't realize that the fact that all aros are not aces is not known at all. They probably don't get that we have also our own problematics that have nothing to do with asexualiity (though we share things in common too), and that we need to discuss it.

 

So my point is : aces think they will stop intolerance against aro (in their own community) by being more inclusive. While it seems that aros are looking for the opposite : the recognition of their independance need and of their experiences. In that condition, it is impossible to talk because the two communities don't see the same problem.

 

 

That was just my thoughts on that. Sorry if I am wrong, that's just what I get this morning.

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6 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I think that seeing that aro felt not comfortable, the asexual community decided to be more inclusive. And that's why now, all ace events wants to be "ace and aro" : they fear that if they don't, they will be seen as not inclusive, or discriminatory against aros. This is well-intentionned. They are glad to share ressources for aros too.

But doing that, they don't get that the aro community wants and needs more independance, because they are trying to be inclusive. Probably, they don't get problematics like how aros will be seen as a subcategory of aces - probably because aces are sharing the fact that all aces are not aros, but don't realize that the fact that all aros are not aces is not known at all. They probably don't get that we have also our own problematics that have nothing to do with asexualiity (though we share things in common too), and that we need to discuss it.

 

So my point is : aces think they will stop intolerance against aro (in their own community) by being more inclusive. While it seems that aros are looking for the opposite : the recognition of their independance need and of their experiences. In that condition, it is impossible to talk because the two communities don't see the same problem.

 

That was just my thoughts on that. Sorry if I am wrong, that's just what I get this morning.

I second this.

 

Putting new borders around and subgroups (aro aces, aro allos, ...) help making these spaces safer and more confortable. But it will also push people into labels. If every online space does that there will be no place for the questionning anymore. I won't blame AVEN or others for trying to be aro inclusive and open. Because love is confusing some newbies think that they are asexual while they are mainly aromantic. Some people there have discovered aromanticism (me included).

 

I understand that allo aros are feeling unconfortable being bundled with the asexual community because the sexual part of me experienced it first hand. In the asexual community, I can unintentionally be triggering to others as a graysexual and feel highly unconfortable around romantic aces. I have seen more grays and aros in AVEN. Raising awareness to all is ongoing and needed.

 

As arocalypse decides to protect an independant aromantic space all aros should deffinitely find a safe place here. But pushing aromanticism out of AVEN is a bad idea I think since a lot of aromantics do belong there. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh for other parts of the aromantic community. I would think that more dialogue (like promotion of Arocalyspe from AVEN ) would be beneficial instead of being blocked in the past feuds.

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I think we need both. We absolutely do need ace spaces to become more inclusive of aros, but we need aro-specific spaces as well.

The other, perhaps more pressing matter, is that we need everything labeled as "ace and aro" to show that it's not just a name. Sure, anyone can slap "and aro" onto a title- But will they make space for romance-repulsed folks? Will they make space for allosexual aros to talk about our sexualities? Will they actually do anything to welcome aros, or is it an ace space in all but name?

In an ideal world where both orientations are treated with equal respect, as an allo aro I might actually feel totally comfortable with "ace and aro" events and such. But as it is, I tend to distrust them unless they do something to outright state that they are welcoming to allo aros, because I can never tell if something is genuinely by and for aros (and by that I mean, not just aroaces who exclusively interact with the ace community), or if it's just an ace group that changed their name for the sake of keeping up appearances and pretending to be inclusive without actually trying.

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Guest Marie

Well I have a question then. First, I discovered I was aromantic through AVEN, but I understand how allosexual aros would feel uncomfortable in that space. When you say you would like a space just for aros, does that include aro aces? Now the effects of typing aros and aces together are very damaging. I realized just today that i myself am disconnected from the aro community while I have been trying to get more engaged in the ace community. I would love to engage more in aro spaces, but I am wondering if aro spaces like you mention would be open to aro aces. I may be misunderstanding, and I am sure you aren’t meaning to exclude aro aces from aro spaces, but I am just a bit confused.

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8 minutes ago, Guest Marie said:

Well I have a question then. First, I discovered I was aromantic through AVEN, but I understand how allosexual aros would feel uncomfortable in that space. When you say you would like a space just for aros, does that include aro aces? Now the effects of typing aros and aces together are very damaging. I realized just today that i myself am disconnected from the aro community while I have been trying to get more engaged in the ace community. I would love to engage more in aro spaces, but I am wondering if aro spaces like you mention would be open to aro aces. I may be misunderstanding, and I am sure you aren’t meaning to exclude aro aces from aro spaces, but I am just a bit confused.

 

I'd say yes, of course, unless it's specifically a space for allosexual aros, though I don't expect there to be many of those offline. Some allo aros want spaces just for us in addition to general aro spaces, because general aro spaces still often come with alloarophobia (I can even give specific examples of this happening). There's been a problem with aroaces getting upset at us "excluding" them from such spaces, when these spaces are meant to be safe spaces for us, and there are plenty of general aro spaces they could join.

But if I were to, say, start an irl aro group, or make a general aro Discord server or forums or whatever, then I would say yes, aroaces would absolutely be welcome (so long as they aren't disrespectful to allo aros), and I think it would be important as well to be considerate of those who are sex repulsed.

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Guest Marie

That makes sense. All I want is to be able to interact with my aro fam, but it makes sense where the disconnects happen. I mean from what I last saw even r/aromantic is almost 60% composed of aromantics who also identify as asexual. But respect to my aromantic allosexual fam. Thanks for answering.

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8 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I think that seeing that aro felt not comfortable, the asexual community decided to be more inclusive. And that's why now, all ace events wants to be "ace and aro" : they fear that if they don't, they will be seen as not inclusive, or discriminatory against aros.

I think there's also another reason and it is that at least some ace and aro events organizers are aroace and while they used to center their ace identity or talk about their aro identity only in ace spaces, now with aro spaces separating in some ways, they want to reflect that with the names of the groups/events. It's possible that some groups didn't change their character much, but it was understood before that an ace group could also be an aro group. This is not the case now.

 

2 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

I think we need both. We absolutely do need ace spaces to become more inclusive of aros, but we need aro-specific spaces as well.

Yup!! I think ace spaces mainly owe it to aroaces to be more inclusive of aromanticism, bc aroaces are a big (in numbers) and important part of their community, in a way that bi, lesbian, gay or hetero aros won't ever be a big part of bi, lesbian or gay communities (idk if talking about hetero communities is justified, but)

 

4 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

I tend to distrust them unless they do something to outright state that they are welcoming to allo aros, because I can never tell if something is genuinely by and for aros (and by that I mean, not just aroaces who exclusively interact with the ace community)

Same, though I may also look for wording such as: all aros, aros and/or aces. "Aros and aces" is ambiguous to me and while maybe allo aces feel welcome and claim this space (idk actually), I don't automatically think I'm always welcome

 

3 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

There's been a problem with aroaces getting upset at us "excluding" them from such spaces

I heard of an issue with a discord server being presented that way... This may have happened too, but i know what also happened was that some allo aros didn't agree with some moderation practices, but idk if you may have that in mind

 

In the end, there's a lot of conflicting needs and interests and I think we should be mindful of this and assume everyone wants to do what they think is best and tread with tact. And at least in aro spaces, all aros should be welcome

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16 minutes ago, bydontost said:

 

I heard of an issue with a discord server being presented that way... This may have happened too, but i know what also happened was that some allo aros didn't agree with some moderation practices, but idk if you may have that in mind

 

 

If you're talking about the one run by aro-allo-positivity, yeah I also hate that one cause the owner is super fucking racist, but that really doesn't change the fact of the matter: Someone made a server for allo aros only, aroaces demanded to be let in and complained that they were being exclusionary. Can you imagine if someone made an ace-only server and allo aros demanded to be let in? That wouldn't be ok. And from what I understand this has also been happening with the other allo aro server, which I am also not in.

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2 minutes ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

 

If you're talking about the one run by aro-allo-positivity, yeah I also hate that one cause the owner is super fucking racist, but that really doesn't change the fact of the matter: Someone made a server for allo aros only, aroaces demanded to be let in and complained that they were being exclusionary. Can you imagine if someone made an ace-only server and allo aros demanded to be let in? That wouldn't be ok. And from what I understand this has also been happening with the other allo aro server, which I am also not in.

That's the one lol. I just know that they made a complaint about aroaces demanding to be let in when they were dealing with other allo aros telling them their moderation was shit. An allo aro was painted as an "ace miffed that they were kicked" (I'm going to say that this is a very rude and insensitive way of talking about anyone) for reporting the fact they wanted pictures of people's legal documents (blurred out) to confirm their age. Some of the drama: https://quiet-times.tumblr.com/post/611178074343653376/just-letting-you-know-ive-reported-your-server

I'm not sure about another servers, but people who make servers get to decide who they want to be in it in the end. I'm personally okay with letting interested people spaces intended for allo aros, as long as they respect it's a place for us, but I know this isn't something that would suit everyone

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3 minutes ago, bydontost said:

That's the one lol. I just know that they made a complaint about aroaces demanding to be let in when they were dealing with other allo aros telling them their moderation was shit. An allo aro was painted as an "ace miffed that they were kicked" (I'm going to say that this is a very rude and insensitive way of talking about anyone) for reporting the fact they wanted pictures of people's legal documents (blurred out) to confirm their age. Some of the drama: https://quiet-times.tumblr.com/post/611178074343653376/just-letting-you-know-ive-reported-your-server

I'm not sure about another servers, but people who make servers get to decide who they want to be in it in the end. I'm personally okay with letting interested people spaces intended for allo aros, as long as they respect it's a place for us, but I know this isn't something that would suit everyone

 

Oh yeah, the management is shit for sure, but there definitely were aroaces coming into their inbox- As well as, for whatever reason, people who didn't even run the server and simply reblogged the post- Complaining that it wasn't fair for them to make an allo aro only server. I even saw someone directly call aroaces "the most important part" of the aro community, which... Yikes!

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On 3/16/2020 at 10:58 AM, nonmerci said:

I think that seeing that aro felt not comfortable, the asexual community decided to be more inclusive. And that's why now, all ace events wants to be "ace and aro" : they fear that if they don't, they will be seen as not inclusive, or discriminatory against aros. This is well-intentionned. They are glad to share ressources for aros too.

I'm thinking of how this meme might apply.
Accessibility: Being able to get into the building.
Diversity: Getting invited to the table.

Inclusion: Having a voice.
Belonging: Being listened to.

 

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2 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm thinking of how this meme might apply.
Accessibility: Being able to get into the building.
Diversity: Getting invited to the table.

Inclusion: Having a voice.
Belonging: Being listened to.

 

Exactly!

 

22 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

I think we need both. We absolutely do need ace spaces to become more inclusive of aros, but we need aro-specific spaces as well.

Indeed. That's what I mean too.

 

22 hours ago, Ch0c0 said:

I understand that allo aros are feeling unconfortable being bundled with the asexual community because the sexual part of me experienced it first hand. In the asexual community, I can unintentionally be triggering to others as a graysexual and feel highly unconfortable around romantic aces.

Even as an aro ace, I think it is better to also have separate places. I personally feel no need to talk about my asexuality because I just don't care. I don't want my aromanticism to be seen a s a sub-culture while it is so much more important to me than my asexuality. Also, alloace and aroace have different problematics when it comes to romance.

 

17 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

there definitely were aroaces coming into their inbox- As well as, for whatever reason, people who didn't even run the server and simply reblogged the post- Complaining that it wasn't fair for them to make an allo aro only server.

That's strange. If aroallo want a place just for them to discuss specific problematics, this is their choice. I can't picture myself participating into a discussion about sexual relationships for instance. Except for being supportive or to be informed about the difficuties you face.

 

17 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

I even saw someone directly call aroaces "the most important part" of the aro community, which... Yikes!

Wait what? First this is not a reason for aroallo to not have their own places. Second, are we even sure of that? I mean, it seems that aroaces are more aware of their aromanticism than aroallo, who are less aware that sexual and romantic attraction are different and so not aware they are aro, or that you can be aro but not ace... As most of the ressources are linked to asexuality.

And then, they wonder why aroallos want a place just for them...

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