nonmerci

59 minutes ago, Coyote said:

But I'm not just saying all this to say "it's hard and complicated." I'm saying this because if you want better Google Scholar results, then think in terms of what a potential aro researcher would have to work with. Aromantic research can't follow the exact same trajectory that asexual research did. Unlike sexology, there's no psych field of like... romance... ology. There's psych lit on married couples and stuff, sure, but it's not a perfectly parallel situation. I don't expect psych lit to be very useful to draw on for the purpose. So if someone's trying to publish something focused on aromanticism, at this stage they'd probably need to cite anything in the academic literature that so much as mentions the romantic orientation model in order to establish precedent.... which.... means.....

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

I see but still upsetting. In particular as I was searching specifically aro articles, so I can quote it for the Wikipedia page. And that really bother me if most of the articles that are here to prove aromanticism is a thing worst talk about are articles entitled "asexuality"... It doesn't mean the articles are not interesting in itself for aromanticism, but still... I think @Magni had faced the same issue as I do : finding articles about aromanticism is hard, though Magni gave me interesting links.

I hope Iit will be better when I'll searched in semi-traditional media : I heard that huffington post has things about aromanticism and that Wikipedia accepts it as a reliable source, I'll check it out in the week.

Anyway, my point is still the same : it is hard for aro to emerge as its own community when everything is tying it to asexuality.

2 hours ago, pressAtoQUEER said:

I identify as both aromantic and asexual specifically because I see the two as separate, distinct, and different (which is not a knock on any non-sam aspecs who experience their aspecness differently than me, it's jme). And I certainly think aromanticism deserves its own community and its own place.

Same. I never get why some people think we necessarily see our aromanticism and our asexuality are necessarily linked?

2 hours ago, pressAtoQUEER said:

We're talking about aroaces feeling generally excluded from their own community. I have seen fellow aroaces get bullied out of the aromantic tag for making posts about aromanticism that also include their asexual experiences and/or are of course also wrapped up in their asexual experiences to the point where I'm afraid to not only post in the aromantic tag but to even acknowledge my asexuality at all in aromantic spaces. I am an aroace person here telling you that I feel alienated by some beliefs that have become prevalent enough in aromantic spaces.

On the same note, recently I have been questioning a decision of mine, to create an aro allo character for a story, because all this ace-antigonism made me feel legitimate to do so as if I would steak aro allo voices. Which was weird because I never felt that way before and always defended the idea that someone can write on whatever subject as long as they are well-informed,  know what they talk about. I also had other LGBT characters before. And I think that my doubts were born because at some point, I started to feel like my asexuality makes me a bad aro.

54 minutes ago, bydontost said:

this sadly seems like an issue for many aroaces. and the "funny" thing is im sure that some allo aros would be able to say similar things, but in reverse - maybe about a different space, or at a different point in time. what's going on that makes us fight each other to the point that everyone feels like they have to leave parts of their experience at the door??

That's what makes all these issues complicated. I think that somehow, the acephobia that is growing here is a response to an aro-allophobia. For instance, the thing about tag policing. For me, it is clearly create by the (legitimate) feeling that some aces was damaging to aromanticism by tagging their post "aro" even if there is nothing about aromanticism in their post. Outside of Tumblr, I recently made a similar experience by looking at aro ressources on scholar Google : I exclusively find things with "asexual" on the title. OK,  the fact that there were apparently no articles about specified aromanticism stuff didn't help, but I was sad though not surprised to see that just the title reflects how it is difficult for some people to think aromantic as it's own thing.

But the legitimate feeling of having aromanticism treated as a subset of asexuality, or anger of seeing exclusively ace stuff tagged as aro... all this creates suspicion for anything that is link to asexuality. And so what @pressAtoQUEER talked about : having post that talk about both aromanticism and asexuality being hated for doing so, or hate against aroace posts. It's literally extremism : taking a problem and going so much, so extreme into it that it leads to be hurtful for other people. And the worst is, as people has a legitimate problem on the first place, it is very difficult to show them how their own behavior is wrong.

8 hours ago, Guest Sennkestra said:

I also think there's an assumption that aces and allies are "natural" allies and that being part of one group makes you both able/responsible for both, which also downplays the amount of actual work that is required for two communities to build active allyship.

This is so true! There is the idea that if you are aro, you know everything about the ace community, and vice versa. But it's not true. I am ace and I am not involved in the ace community as a whole (because I can't relate to allo ace experiences who seem too be the most part of it). I acknowledge some things because it was my first entrance in the a-spec world, but I am far from being an expert. So I don't imagine how it is for some aro allos. And the same way, I don't imagine how it is for allo aces to know about aro experiences. The fact that hat the communities are connected by their history doesn't mean that all aces aces are involved in the aro community and tdknow their problems, and vice versa. We can ask people to know these things if we never tell that he in that he me first place.

I interpret that "if you aromantic you hate love or say bad things about love". But hard to say. Maybe ask your friend what that meant?

46 minutes ago, bydontost said:

to me it seemed mostly a discussion about qprs...?? i'd actually really like to talk about antagonism in various parts of a-spec circles, but maybe on a thread that is specifically for that..??

Same. Personally I don't really care about QPR. I was glad to know it was not created by the aro community, but for the rest I don't consider it is my business. I mean, if I see someone doing misinformation, I would correct them, but what else?

That doesn't mean I am not interested in the tensions between aros and aces, on the contrary.

Thanks you!

So, if we are sayign what we are good at or not, I'd say :

-I am good at syntheses

-I can translate the article in French so we can add it to the French wikipedia if the article is accepted

-I am not an English native speaker so what I write will need correction to be in a proper language I think

-I don't know a lot of ressources (but I am willing to change that); if there is one thing I've learned from university, it is how scholar articles bored me, except maybe if I am really interested in the subject (good point though, aromanticism is interesting, yeah!)

On 3/23/2020 at 3:38 AM, Magni said:

Things can talk about in article:

• can mention aro characters, this has Jughead & Katniss, would want to look into others
• Some stuff for discussing aro spectrum and various identities
• some stuff acknowledging alienation/dehumanization/microaggressions against aromantics, and it being different or worse against aro aces than against alloro aces
• several things explicitly acknowledging that people can be aro and not ace (aka allosexual), though unfortunately hard to find stuff going into more depth on that since most things look at aro aces.
• can elaborate some stuff of connections of aromantic with amatonormativity and with relationship stuff

 

Future Research:

• discussing aro history and organizations with sufficiently "official" sources? there's many stuff mentioning things like the founding of AVEN, parallel stuff about arocalypse and AUREA seems reasonable to include.
• more research for more aro characters can bulk stuff up with some, along with aro celebrities ideally; can include discussion about how very rare any representation is

I agree. I will add maybe something about the connections with the ace community, and the limits of this connection? Maybe in the historical part. And also, not forget the limits othe connection to adress the problem of confusing both terms, in particular in regards of allo aro who are the less known of us.

Maybe people in this thread can help with the history part?

Other link I find

http://cj.chasin.ca/Chasin_Making.sense.of.asexual.community_JCASP.2014.pdf a study about amatonormativity in Bond's movies. Though it doesn't say aromanticism, it denounces how in recent movies, love is seen as something universally desirable. Also, from what I get (a bit hard when you haven't seen the movies lol) : it connected amatonormativity and gender roles. The idea is that the recent movies are seen as progressive, because of romance that makes Bond changes; but in fact it is not, the model of hypermasculinity becomes a model of toxic masculinity, and friendship of work are seen as not valuable as romantic love.

I am trying to find specific aro allo thing, or just articles about aromanticism that are not entitled as asexual articles, but my, this is hard...

Wow thanks Magni! If I have time I will look at all this today,  otherwise tomorrow. It is very helpful! In particular because I thought nobody was interested, I'm glad now.

Really not an expert on romantic relationship or QPR,  but for what you say at the end, I would say not in love but afraid of losing her if she gets involved in a romantic relationship with someone someday.

But that just my thoughts,  I don't have the whole picture and can't know how you feel, you have to figure out on your own.

37 minutes ago, TripleA said:

I've heard neurodiverse was created for just those with autism, adhd, etc. and doesn't include those with mental illnesses

It was created for autism first. And then I think it was extented to other things,  but not mental illness I think (if I am wrong, correct me).

5 hours ago, Korbin said:

I just really wanted to say that as a huge shipper I was surprised that my own writing doesn't organically focus on shipping at all.

Same. I don't go crazy about it, but I can picture some characters being a couple.

I can have romance in my stories, but it doesn't focus on it. I just write a romantic subplot if I feel it is right for the two character.

I also have a story where I have no romance at all. In fact, if I write a sequel,  the main character will be reveals to be allo aro. But most of my beta readers were shipping her with the other main character, or at least expecting her to be.

As you said, it was a big sign of us being aromantic.

3 hours ago, Korbin said:

know if Miles Sumney is aromantic? I heard he was, and fact checked to find out that he did indeed say he was... I posted about it some time ago and someone told me he was not.

I think he is? If even himself say he is..  did the person say he was not has any sources? Anyway if the guy say he is, I can't see why he would lie...

3 hours ago, Korbin said:

Edit: ....I officially do not understand how arocalypse works..it just added to my response to you...

So there is no double post, your responses are merged if no one posted after your first post. If I make sense, I'm not good at explaining.

I just decided to have a kid alone (haven't yet), but I can see why people would not do that... plus I am ace so it may explain why I don't want a partner.

maybe you can try on forum like this, see if anyone leaves near you? I don'r know.

2 hours ago, Alexrobinmc said:

haha yeah and i get very invested in my interests, for example if i'm going through an obsession with a band that is literally all i think about and listening to them will give me immense joy and i will absolutely cry over them so i get where you're coming from?

Same.

Falling in love makes people happy, yes, but it is only one of the thing that makes people happy. There are a lit of other things that bring joy in our lives, so I don't bother with something I don't have.

Also, if it help, think about this. I love chocolate. Eating it is wonderful. A little bit of joy. And yeah, I think everybody should taste it because this is amazing. But some people don't like chocolate. No matter how they eat it, they hate the taste. Are they wrong? No. Are they missing something? No. There are other things they love, but not that. And they can't force themselves, it will bring them pain.

Same for love. It brings joy to some people, and it makes other uncomfortable. It is not that you missing something, but that you don't need the same thing.

23 hours ago, Coyote said:

Oh! haha, um, this-- @Ace_of_Spades7 I'm not sure if you know this, but Meloukhia is the coiner of queerplatonic. Here's the first usage that appears on the internet, in their Dreamwidth comment from 2010.

@Ace_of_Spades7 probably linked it because I mentioned QPR can be sexual... which is, now I understand, not how it was supposed to be originally.

2 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm thinking of how this meme might apply.
Accessibility: Being able to get into the building.
Diversity: Getting invited to the table.

Inclusion: Having a voice.
Belonging: Being listened to.

 

Exactly!

22 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

I think we need both. We absolutely do need ace spaces to become more inclusive of aros, but we need aro-specific spaces as well.

Indeed. That's what I mean too.

22 hours ago, Ch0c0 said:

I understand that allo aros are feeling unconfortable being bundled with the asexual community because the sexual part of me experienced it first hand. In the asexual community, I can unintentionally be triggering to others as a graysexual and feel highly unconfortable around romantic aces.

Even as an aro ace, I think it is better to also have separate places. I personally feel no need to talk about my asexuality because I just don't care. I don't want my aromanticism to be seen a s a sub-culture while it is so much more important to me than my asexuality. Also, alloace and aroace have different problematics when it comes to romance.

17 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

there definitely were aroaces coming into their inbox- As well as, for whatever reason, people who didn't even run the server and simply reblogged the post- Complaining that it wasn't fair for them to make an allo aro only server.

That's strange. If aroallo want a place just for them to discuss specific problematics, this is their choice. I can't picture myself participating into a discussion about sexual relationships for instance. Except for being supportive or to be informed about the difficuties you face.

17 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

I even saw someone directly call aroaces "the most important part" of the aro community, which... Yikes!

Wait what? First this is not a reason for aroallo to not have their own places. Second, are we even sure of that? I mean, it seems that aroaces are more aware of their aromanticism than aroallo, who are less aware that sexual and romantic attraction are different and so not aware they are aro, or that you can be aro but not ace... As most of the ressources are linked to asexuality.

And then, they wonder why aroallos want a place just for them...

Hi all! I was reading the discussion here about should AVEN be involved in arocalypse or not. My purpose is of course not to start again the discussion here, as it was locked so we can calm down, but to say what I understood reading the discussion : why the "ace and aro" thing can be problematic.

So basically, the discussion was like this : "asexuality and aromanticism has always been tied" - "but we don't want it to be" - "it is interconnected" - "we don't feel that way" (that is a simplification of course). And this is how I finally get why even if I am aro and ace, I was always sceptical to see the two community always tied together.

I think that seeing that aro felt not comfortable, the asexual community decided to be more inclusive. And that's why now, all ace events wants to be "ace and aro" : they fear that if they don't, they will be seen as not inclusive, or discriminatory against aros. This is well-intentionned. They are glad to share ressources for aros too.

But doing that, they don't get that the aro community wants and needs more independance, because they are trying to be inclusive. Probably, they don't get problematics like how aros will be seen as a subcategory of aces - probably because aces are sharing the fact that all aces are not aros, but don't realize that the fact that all aros are not aces is not known at all. They probably don't get that we have also our own problematics that have nothing to do with asexualiity (though we share things in common too), and that we need to discuss it.

So my point is : aces think they will stop intolerance against aro (in their own community) by being more inclusive. While it seems that aros are looking for the opposite : the recognition of their independance need and of their experiences. In that condition, it is impossible to talk because the two communities don't see the same problem.

That was just my thoughts on that. Sorry if I am wrong, that's just what I get this morning.

2 hours ago, cluebat said:

Writing fiction with arospec characters because you crave representation.

My, when I discover I was aro ace, I realized one character I wrote were too. A character who has a relation towards attraction which was inspired from my experience... he was a big sign I was aro but I didn't notice.

And after discovery I wanted aro characters in my books. I kinda calm down on that because my stories are not about that and I don't always have the time to wonder about it, but I have planned stories with main characters, and I want people to acknowledge our existence, you know.

1 hour ago, Ace_of_Spades7 said:

And many people in the ace community tend to believe that being "aro-ace" means wanting a QPR.

Wat what? How do they come to this conclusion?

I am aroace and certainly don't want a QPR. Aroace just means no romantic and no sexual attraction... some wants a QPR and some don't. It depends on the person.

I don't even think it is an aro ace thing : I'm sure I saw some aro allo said they want one too... so they can add a sexual composent sometimes.

Maybe it is an example of how some aces are still stuck in amatonormativity? They have to difficulty to understand some people are juste not interested in monogamous relationship, romantic or not? I don't know.

For what I understand,  the rules is that new pages have to have references, sources. It seems they prefer articles from known media  rather than ressources from organizations like AUREA. Which I can understand, but will ask to look for articles.

The thing is : anybody can write on Wikipedia, but you have to prove that what you say is true.

Having a word for meaning "not asexual" is just normal to me and very useful. It is useful when we talk about split attraction, or just when we talk about people who are not asexual. It would be difficult to talk about how our experiences different without a word for it... and just describe them as "not asexual" doesn't feel right : I hate to describe things by the negative, for me it is just showing we lack a word in our language.

And if the word were created and is still used, it is because it is useful.

So as we talk here, I am interested in creating a Wikipedia page about aromanticism, because we lack one and let's be honnest : it is very important for visibility and people people believing we exist.

However I can't picture myself to do it alone (because it is about all the communauté,  not just me), and because as people said in the other thread it can be long.

I will not have the time to be involved in it before the end of the month,  but as arocalypse may be closing ? I am looking now for people who are interesting. If so, please say it here or send me a private message.

Noooooooo!!! (Sorry, it came from the heart)

I don't have time or knowledge to do it.

If no one does I agree with what @DavidMS703 said : Can it merged with AUREA? I always saw AUREA as complementary to arocalypse, that I see as the official forum. If arocalypse shuts down we'll miss something important.

Yes they can.

I think love at first sight don't exist, only romantic attraction at first sight. And people will see it at love at first sight later when they tell their story... but what do I know?

And yeah, that could be a good short story. Or a substory in a novel, as you wish. Why not, after all?

On 3/7/2019 at 2:20 AM, anyareads said:

You (if you want)  can classify yourself as lithromantic, meaning you can feel romantic attraction but haven't, only in theory.

I thought lithromantic means you feel romantic attraction but it vanishes if the person reciprocate? Or I confuse with something else?

You sound aro to me too, probably cupioromantic. You don't have to be romance repulsed to be aro. And you can try a romantic relationship if you want, if you tell the person about your doubts. 

It's not about being tied down to someone. The thing is : in a monogamous relationship, both people have an agreement, that they won't see someone. Cheating is breaking this the agreement, most of the time they also lied. So you feel like you gave your trust to someone and they decided to betray you. Like if you decided to go to the show of your favorite band with a very good friend since a long time, but this friend decided to go with a person they barely know instead, without telling you.

Also there is probably a mixed of anger and guilt because some times (not everyone I suppose) the cheated one wonder why their partner feel the need to betray them like that, what did they do wrong (and some cheating person will add to that when they justify themselves).

8 hours ago, Ch0c0 said:

The person harrassed was partially discredited because she used to be friendly with her offender and blocked/ignored him before saying NO WAY and making everything cristal clear.

Sad but not surprising. When will people get that the person harrassed is never the guilty one?

First, I would say to stop justifying. No is no, he should take that this way. I read that allo sometimes think that if you justify your "no", it means you care so they still have a chance.  I don't know if it's true.

Then, take distance. Possibly,  tell him how it makes you feel and see if he stops. Maybe he has an emotional break-down, and it's sad, but I'm sure he has other friends who can handle that, or maybe a therapist. You are not responsible for him, and it doesn't justify the way he is treating you. Also, this way he may get better that his behaviour is scary and abusive.

Finally, don't handle it alone. Speak about it with other friends if you feel the need to, before reporting the behaviour if that doesn't stop. Your safety is essential.