Erederyn

15 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

That is amazing! Is it specific to a country or region? because I'd love to know more

Yeah, I find it quite exciting! These are the articles I had seen this in:

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20181218-is-platonic-parenting-the-relationship-of-the-future

https://hilltopmonitor.jewell.edu/mating-sites-and-the-rise-of-platonic-co-parenting/

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/31/i-wanted-to-meet-a-mate-and-have-a-baby-without-wasting-time-the-rise-of-platonic-co-parenting

16 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

If you don't already know the term, you might also want to look at information about limerence, especially the information about duration, just as extra backup knowledge when confronting your friends on their bias

Thanks for the suggestion!

Welcome! I'm glad posts on Arocalypse have been helpful for you, I've definitely found them insightful myself ? 

Very cool that you like to learn languages- which ones are you learning now? 

7 hours ago, cyancat said:

likewise, i think aesthetic, sensual, etc., attraction might be experienced so closely to sexual and/or romantic attraction that it's just not a thing people naturally bother differentiating.

That's a good point! I have heard of this being the case for many allo people, that these are all bundled together often. But I imagine that it could still be possible for them to experience things like platonic attraction or aesthetic/sensual attraction just on their own. They might just not realize that they are different forms of attraction. I do wonder how often people could be potentially confusing other forms of attraction for romantic and/or sexual attraction simply because they don't know. 

On 1/29/2021 at 8:19 PM, Rainy Robin said:

Do you mind if I ask what issues the oriented aroace label has? I'm relatively new to the aro community and I haven't heard about this yet but I'd like to learn more. 

Sure! Essentially, there was some discussion about it being exclusionary to aro and ace-spec people who experience some romantic/sexual attraction. I think the person who coined it defined it originally for aroaces who don't experience any romantic or sexual attraction at all. Also some people don't like the term "oriented" because it could imply that aromanticism/asexuality aren't orientations on their own. 

I won't really be doing anything this year, but I like to send silly little Valentine's cards to my friends. Especially the fun aro/ace ones. Besides that, it'd just be having a nice Palentine's dinner with friends and expressing my appreciation of them. With some friends, we give each other yellow roses.

Do you have any ideas of what you'd like to do with your friends?

2 hours ago, Rainy Robin said:

I agree with this, mainly because I think these different types of attraction are seen as less valuable or less influential to one's lived experience than sexual and romantic attraction. I think this may have something to do with the fact that they aren't talked about very much in mainstream society? I imagine that if we had more conversations about these ideas in public spheres, then we would take them more seriously. 

I think that (like I mentioned earlier) society has a very simplistic understanding of orientation, at least in the sense that it only considers romantic and sexual attraction as important elements of how a person interacts with others. And since people on the aromantic and/or asexual spectrums are more likely to think in terms of other types of attraction, I think it completely makes sense to include those types of attraction in a description of one's orientation. Though I think we should definitely normalize allo people doing this as well!

For sure, and I think that on top of that many people don't even realize that there could be other types of attractions. Besides romantic and sexual attraction, maybe aesthetic attraction is more "mainstream" but things like platonic attraction or sensual attraction, they might not even exist as far as most people are concerned. A queer friend of mine gave a presentation on attraction and only mentioned romantic, sexual, emotional, and physical (aesthetic), and her mind was blown when I mentioned that there can be up to 16 different kinds of attraction!

3 hours ago, Rony said:

I'm identifying myself as aroace demi/grayplatonic and graysensual (without being sure who is attractive to me due to my conditional experience of it), and I'm more about to say: hey, but it's my orientation, not just attraction.

And what do you think about it?

I think this is great! I myself have been thinking a lot more about this as well. I say, if you experience another form of attraction that is important to you, then why not label it? There is the oriented aroace label that some people use to to signify that they experience other forms of attraction that isn't romantic or sexual, although the term is considered to have some issues. But it's just to show that others feel this way too, in that it's not just an attraction, it's part of their orientation.

This book has been on my reading list, I just haven't had the chance to get to it! Have you finished reading it already? I'm pretty swamped at the moment, but would be cool to talk about it once I get around to it ?

Hi there! Figuring out one's orientation can be a tricky thing, but always good to take your time with it. There are a good number of threads on questioning here, so maybe those can be of help to you! 

String tricks sounds cool! Do you have a favorite trick?

I used to be more interested in clothes, but my style and interest has toned down because life. My thing was (and still is a bit) boots. My favorite pair was a lace-up victorian-esque pair of boots, which I had to part with because they got so worn (from loving them so much ?). I also used to be a fan of blouses with fun sleeves and wearing over-the-top earrings. A thing that changed in my style is wearing more patterns, which I didn't do much before, although my style in general has become more business casual because of work, so not very exciting. 

Seeing others "moving ahead" with their lives and having connections can definitely lead to resentment when you're not in a good place yourself. I think it's a normal response to have when you feel that your life is lacking in some way (aka not having a genuine connection with anyone). It sucks that you were left out of important news from a family member, and it sucks not having any friends or close relationships, having no one to talk to. I'm sorry you're experiencing this.

I don't want to give any unsolicited advice, sometimes you just have to vent and that's alright. But while it's important for you to let yourself feel your feelings of bitterness and anger and frustration, it's also necessary to consider making steps to address this and make changes in your life, especially if you've been feeling like that for some time. Continuously feeling frustrated or bitter only hurts you and leaves you stuck where you are in the end. It's hard work building and maintaining relationships of any kind, but it's even harder if you're feeling like this regularly. Anyway, I hope you can work this out and make the genuine connections you desire. 

I came across aromanticism for the first time at around 18-19ish, which is relatively young, but there was so little information on it that I kind of just dismissed it for some time until my mid-20s when there was more information out there which helped me better realize I was aro and come to terms with it. So I suppose rather than finding out earlier, I wish I had more resources available to me earlier to better help me because then maybe I'd have established that with myself earlier.

22 hours ago, nonmerci said:

Show them statistics of divorces.

Joke aside, I'm pretty sure that a friendship is actually more stable than a romantic one. I don't know a lot of stories when friendship ends badly, usually it is more people who can't find the time to see each other or things like that. And that won't be the case for two friends who adopt together. Of course a child will change the friendship dynamic, but so is for romance, and I think they are equal for that.

Yeah, exactly. I think there's actually been a general upward trend in platonic co-parenting because people are realizing that it's more stable. 

22 hours ago, nonmerci said:

Oh I almost forgot, there is this time when one of my best friend forgot I was aro and seemed very disappointed when I reminded her. I don't remember what she said, and after I said qi was aro she said nothing, but I remember the disappointment on her face, that hurts.

I'm so sorry that happened to you, that's awful! :( 

4 hours ago, Jedi said:

It might be tone-def of me to come with advice (to a moderator no less), since I know very little about what you've already done. But there is this one dynamic that I have noticed that you might want to utilize. I think discussing things like amatonormativity in general can easily get kind of abstract, and everything makes sense and they agree but it kind of stays in a different brainspace than your actual life. Humans you are actively speaking to though, those are real. So, I think it might be worth bringing it up (I avoid saying 'confronting' because that puts in mind a more aggressive discussion) but in a "Hey friend, do you actually believe in that thing you just said?" Like "You really think the relationships I form are 'no big deal'?"

Hurting a friends feelings is real. So assuming that your friends don't want to hurt you, it might make them more likely to reflect?

That's a good point, they might not have realized that it hurt me. I'll definitely give that a try, thanks!

59 minutes ago, Jedi said:

What is it that they're saying and doing that is bothering you? I ask because I feel like amatonormaive things can cover such a wide space, I can't tell what is going on.  

I did actually speak to a friend about it recently. For a different reason though, and not using the word, I didn't even remember that there was a word for this. But I had been reminded about these ideas, about how romantic relationships are placed on such a high pedestal it is like there is no space for anything else. Like any closeness that isn't romantic or through a family bond is considered to not even be that real. I know those things aren't true, but being reminded of the fact that some people think like that still surprised me by the fact that it hurt. Like I had internalized parts of the message and it's been lying there under the surface. I needed to talk to someone about it, even though I knew that the friend I had easiest to reach isn't all that good at helping with weird feelings (though to be fair, neither am I :P)

I did get an interesting response though, that I did not really expect: "Most people don't think like that." Didn't see where these ideas were coming from. Thinking I was mostly affected by my own anxiety and worrying about nothing, really.

And while "You're worrying about nothing" is not especially validating to hear, there is something else to it also. It means that these amatonormative ideas didn't register as true to my friend at all. And he didn't recognise them in people he knows either. It is a subtle disease I think, amatonormativity. It's everywhere, and we see it clearer because we are hypersensitive to it. But I guess, just because the message is there all the time, doesn't necessarily mean people buy into it. So that's what I took out of that conversation. My friend is not super great at being emotional support, but, perhaps more importantly, he isn't being amatonormative either x)

Comments that bother me are usually related to invalidating the importance of friendships. Some specific examples are friends saying that romantic feelings are mean "more" than platonic feelings/having strong feelings for someone can only be romantic (gushing about a friend = “obviously a crush”). Or downplaying the loss of a friendship and that it’s not a big deal because it’s not a romantic partner. Or two friends can’t/shouldn’t co-parent and shouldn’t be allowed to adopt children together because friendship is a “less stable and less legitimate” relationship... 

It's nice to read, though, that your friend didn't agree with such ideas/didn't buy into amatonormative ideas, so thanks for sharing that. I think you have a point in saying that we are hypersensitive to amatonormativity and I agree that not everyone buys into it. I have a couple of friends who also don't subscribe to amatonormative ideas, which I'm super appreciative of, and generally I have been seeing more attention given to the importance of friendship in mainstream society, which is uplifting. And it's to be expected that there will be some people in my life who do buy into amatonormativity or that sometimes people will accidentally say things they don't mean to just because it's so ingrained. I guess it's just more frustrating to me with these particular friends because I'd hope they know a little better.

Something that I find myself getting a bit frustrated with from time to time is dealing with amatonormativity from close friends who know I’m aromantic and have said that they accept me and think I’m valid. We’ve had some discussions about what it’s like to be aromantic and generally how the emphasis on romance in society can be harmful, and I’ve explained to them to the concept of amatonormativity and have had conversations on this with them a couple of times and so forth.

I find however that they’ll still say or do really amatonormative things, and I get a bit disappointed and hurt. I have to wonder how much time they’ve taken to reflect on and challenge their own amatonormative ideas after our discussions. I don’t necessarily expect my friends to do the work of challenging their amatonormativity, and I get that that would take time (although for some of them it’s been at least 3 years) and energy to change something so ingrained, but I did hope it’s something they’d be more conscious about. So it stings a bit when they continue being amatonormative, especially my queer friends. In a way, it feels like they don’t really accept me. Or at least that they accept me, but not aromanticism, if that makes sense? I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it makes me wonder sometimes how seriously they take it. I’m not sure if it’s worth it confronting them with it, though. Perhaps I have too high hopes that after learning about amatonormativity, they’d become more mindful of it, and I am taking it too seriously.

Anyway, have you talked to your friends about amatonormativity generally/have you confronted friends about being amatonormative? Do you find that they try to change their amatonormative ideas afterwards/ do you even hope or expect them to challenge their own amatonormativity?

1 hour ago, mediocrejoke said:

thank you. im sorry you've had to interact with jerks, i can't believe people have said that to you, i thought only teens acted like that. how can you put a cap on how many friends you can have?? that's just weird.

i appreciate the suggestion but im not a fan of big groups of people, i get all awkward so instead i keep quiet. plus im like a caretaker for my little brother who is homebound right now bc he refuses to wear a mask (he's disabled and doesn't understand) so since he's home, im home. also i know my wording at the end sounded like i don't want to make friends at all but that's not it. i just meant i stopped putting myself out there and "shooting me shot" platonically to people who i thought we're cool and wanted to befriend lol but really thank you for the kind words :)) 

Yeah, it was an... interesting experience, for sure lol.

But yeah, I can see how clubs/organizations are not the best option ? I'm not a fan of big groups myself, so I started a small online book club (3 people) and language practice group (4 people), and I made some connections that way. But I get that you want to stop putting yourself out there after not having much luck. Sometimes you just need to take a break from trying and let yourself pine a little, nothing wrong with that! I hope things go more in your favor in the future, though :)

I'm sorry to hear that you've had negative experiences with friendships, it really sucks when that happens. Making new friends is hard, even more so when previous attempts didn't turn out well.  It also doesn't help that it can sometimes be harder to make friends as an adult and opportunities are limited in the middle of a pandemic. I get the frustration, though. I moved to a new country a couple of years ago and I'm still learning the language and trying to build up an entirely new social network as an adult (I've had people tell me to my face that they don't want to hang out because they already have enough friends, which okay, I get but yeesh).

Since internet is not really working for you, is it possible for you to join some IRL clubs or organizations to meet people? I get that many things are closed now/it's harder to go out and do things, so maybe that's just not an option, but that could help. It's sometimes easier getting to know people when there is some external reason for getting together (like with an organization/club). If/when you want to try making friends again, it's something you could try out! I also get if you're just not interested in that now.

Nice that you found a friend you like so much!

Perhaps you could say something along the lines of "It would be nice to have the company of a friend, would you like to have dinner with me?"/"It would be nice to have dinner with a friend, would you like to join me?" I would say that's pretty clear that you mean it platonically and not as a date. 

Good luck!

- Lack of common courtesy

- Cancel culture/perfection culture (not being able to admit wrongdoings or ignorance, harshly penalizing others for mistakes without allowing room for growth, learning...)

- Too much clutter/disorganization

- Bigotry

- Respectability politics 

- Close-mindedness 

It can be hard to find good songs about friends! Here are a couple, though, I hope you enjoy :)

"Hug All Ur Friends" by Cavetown

"Count on Me" by Bruno Mars

"Thank You for Being a Friend" by Andrew Gold

Oh, nice! I lived in Maastricht for a bit, did my master's there. I miss the hills 

I live in de Randstad area, more towards center of the Netherlands. And you? 

I do! Sometimes it feels like there are barely any aros in the Netherlands (or that it's not as visible here). 

4 hours ago, Aspienurse said:

Let me rephrase : I'm a cis woman, pansexual aroacespike. Is this alright? ?? 

Yeah, that's alright, you can say it like that! You could also say "I'm a pansexual aroacespike cis woman" :) Either way gets it across though.

Hallo, Miranda! Exciting to meet an aroace-spectrum person who also lives in the Netherlands. I'm glad that you were able to find a label that feels right to you. I think most people would say "I am [label/identity]" but if you like to say "I feel aroacespike" that's fine as well :) Anyway, welcome to the community, I hope you have a nice time around here! 

Sounds good to me, see you next time! 

Those sound like some nice plans, folks. All the best, I hope you all can accomplish your goals! 

My plans/goals for this year are to become more involved with activism and building the skills required for this, get back into music (I completely stopped listening to music and playing the violin/piano because I felt "emotionally constipated"), be more patient and accepting of where I am in life now even if it's not my ideal situation, and to put myself out there more (instead of only lurking online and not interacting ?). 

Also to finally publish a research paper I've been working on for three freakin years and be one step closer to finishing my PhD ?