Magni

Romantic attraction is hard to define for everyone, and especially amongst aros who don't feel it.  However, recently ended up trying define it as "a bundle of various other types of attraction, though specific attractions involved can vary, and which is also wrapped up together with wanting it to be romantic and the societal norms that entails."  Basically, if you feel various attractions and you aren't sure if they could maybe be considered romantic or not, but you don't want it to be romantic attraction or don't desire a romantic relationship based on those attractions, then it's not romantic attraction.  Also, having problems differentiating between romantic and platonic/other attractions would fall under quoiromantic, which is still aro-spec and also included under aro/aromantic.

Hey, sorry there hasn't been much progress on this recently.  I recently made an aro activism discord server, where I hope we will be able to make better progress on projects such as this one.  Link to the discord server is here: https://discord.gg/vmRVPRV . I also made a post on the forums here with a bit more info, found here.

I decided to create a discord server for aro activism in general, since oftentimes there's a lot of people who are interested in getting involved with things but don't necessarily know how, or people with ideas for projects that are difficult to implement on their own.  There are channels for general aro activism topics and then for more specific projects.  There's a channel for the aro wiki project which has been discussed here, and I hope to make more progress with it since a platform like discord facilitates more active communication.  Another project currently planned is an ongoing project to create infographics related to aro topics which can facilitate spreading information.  This is a generally serious server focused on trying to accomplish things and we would prefer for people to be at least around 16 years old.

Here's the link for the server: https://discord.gg/vmRVPRV

Let me know if you have any questions

18 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Why do people feel the need to specify a word or multiple words for the specific, nuanced way in which they tend to experience a thing?

People might make the same argument against people using aromantic as a term.  And like, not everyone has to label everything they experience, but some people do find it useful.  Microlabels are useful and validating, and having any sort of word describing an experience makes it easier to find other people who also feel that thing.

18 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

It seems like, not only has attraction become basically the only cornerstone of identity,

This is an interesting point to me; on one hand, describing things in the context of attraction is simplest, it is parallel to other identities, and it ties into the idea of it being what you inherently feel rather than what you do.  This can likely be traced to kindof the "born this way" narrative, describing things as being an innate thing about yourself that cannot be changed, bc otherwise people would argue even more that you should just change.  However, platonic attraction is such a vague thing, it's not something mainstream populations notice as a thing that is felt, and while some people do actively feel it, due to the vagueness it is even harder to identify that you don't feel it.  I think for aplatonic, dual definitions is perhaps more helpful, one based in attraction and one not.  Though tbh I kinda grow weary of attempting to argue definitions for it in general and tend to avoid concretely defining it these days, and instead tend to talk about my experiences with the term bc while I feel I understand it and the meaning, I feel like I can't adequately explain it and my attempts to do so would only be met with criticism.

5 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I've never used the term platonic attraction so I don't know. But what else would you call being interested in making friends with someone? I feel like it should be able to encompass attraction of different levels. From an intense squish to just a general interest in befriending someone, or interest for an existent friend.

So, squish would technically be platonic attraction, yes.  People also use squish for queerplatonic attraction, though technically there's other specific words for that, most people just use squish.  I think it makes more sense when looking at parallels with other types of attraction? So like, for me, there's an extent to which I want to have friends, and I will look at people around me for qualities that make someone seem like good friend potential and decide to pursue that because I want to have friends, but I don't really feel a pull towards befriending specific people and it kinda reminds me of before I knew I was aro, when theoretically evaluating who would be a good person to have a crush on in a logical way, except the difference is I do actually want to pursue making friends.  I sometimes rarely experience squishes after I already feel very close to someone, and then I want to be even closer to them and want to spend time with them specifically, as opposed to wanting to spend time with someone and they happen to be the most likely person to spend time with.  So, there's a difference between wanting to have friends and do platonic things, vs wanting to be friends with someone specifically when experiencing platonic attraction towards them.

This seems like a cool project (I saw tumblr post first and reblogged it there), though I don't think I'll have the time to actively participate since I seem to be involved in too many projects to begin with.  I'm unsure if the ideas you list are intended to be just things to be included or if it's supposed to be options for a theme to center the entire zine around; if the latter, I'd caution against the "No romo love stories" one, because even if it's looking at very diverse implementations of love, placing emphasis on having a certain amount of love of any form can be kinda alienating to some people.  Another suggestion for just how to like...feasibly implement things, is to set up a discord server or something that people who are interested can join, or at least to set up a google form where people can more formally express interest and you can gain email addresses to contact people, bc currently just seeing if people are interested but not really having a way for people to sign up or for you to contact specific people who are interested, it will be hard to practically start doing things.  This sounds like a cool project, I wish you luck!

I finished my submission, @Apathetic Echidna.  I ended up drawing the aro One Ring idea (and used the translator you'd linked earlier in this thread :).  Link to my submission is here: https://aromagni.tumblr.com/post/622395923181568000/aromantic-pride-is-precious-carnival-of-aros

55 minutes ago, LauraG said:

Mostly I just feel like people so often choose to interpret the things you say with the worst possible interpretation (for @VoidArcana's reference, since you mentioned being new here, this has a broader context than just this thread). Assuming positive intent of others is a value of mine, and as a result this pattern frustrates me.

....I wasn't assuming negative intent or looking to interpret it negatively because it was coyote? Rather, I'd assumed good intent that happened to be poorly worded in a way that unintentionally came across as harmful.  If anything, the fact is was coyote made me less inclined to say anything because I generally try to avoid direct interaction since it never seems to go well.  However, I as an aplatonic person felt a need to say something because I was uncomfortable with what was said, I'd have addressed it regardless of who said it, it's just that most people wouldn't have responded with such passive aggressive hostility, which if anything did indicate bad intent.
***

16 hours ago, Coyote said:

@Magni If I take the time to type out a response to that, will you answer it?

5 hours ago, LauraG said:

@Magni Is there something wrong with the idea of an allo person identifying as aplatonic because they don't love their friends?

(idk if I missed anywhere else that people tagged me expecting answers to stuff but this is like general answer to all questions directed at me that are still left "open")

I don't think it's a good idea for me to continue debating this topic further? but I feel the need to acknowledge things in some way so my brain will stop dwelling on it/stop feeling obligated to reply. I was upset with initial comment regarding aplatonicism as an aplatonic person (which, I realize in hindsight I hadn't specifically mentioned me being aplatonic in that initial comment but I do know I'd mentioned it on a previous thread y'all were involved in where the definition of aplatonic was discussed).  Sometimes it is difficult to pinpoint exactly why something bothers me beyond just that it does but I do generally try to attempt an explanation, though apparently my explanations aren't very clear.  The responses I received just made me feel dismissed and made me defensive such that I end up trying to defensively overexplain myself, which if anything probably makes my explanations less clear, so then people find more problems with what I say to pick apart to debate me making me defensively explain even more, etc, it cycles like that and goes nowhere productive. 

4 hours ago, VoidArcana said:

Except at least 2 other people chimed in to say that they also had problems with how the statement was worded. If it was just the one then yeah, maybe it was a tone misread on their part, but when multiple people are like 'hey I have an issue with this', that might mean that, at the very least, the statement was poorly thought out. 

Instead of thinking 'hey, actual people who identify as this label I'm talking about were offended, maybe I should apologise and think things through more next time', @Coyote has been dismissive of @Magni, and ignored my comments. Not exactly something that makes me want to assume good faith. Whatever Coyote's personal beef with Magni, ze is an aplatonic person who took issue with the comment. That was never really addressed. 

Yeah, this still hasn't been addressed, it seems like people would rather pick apart everything I say and debate other things rather than actually acknowledge that hey multiple people including those who identify with aplatonic have an issue with what was said so maybe there's an issue here. ( @VoidArcana seems to word the points I'm trying to make better than I can/I generally agree with aer.) I'm not gonna further participate in this debate bc it seems pointless for me to do so and having to justify why I feel upset by something while having my emotions dismissed and my words misinterpreted is distressing to me.

8 minutes ago, sennkestra said:

With regards to exclusionists though, I just want to gently push back on "exclusionists will make fun of us" alone as a reason to avoid certain phrasing - because I do know people who would describe themselves as not feeling "love" for their friends in very similar terms, and I don't want to throw them under the bus just to avoid stupid exclusionist opinions by saying "we're not like those weirdos". 

It's not about "you shouldn't phrase it like that bc exclusionists will say it's weird", it's "I feel hurt by what you are saying because it is similar to hurtful things exclusionists have said".  I feel like only one part of the problem is being recognized; it's not just the definition used, it's that combined with the context/example.

The vast majority of people who use aplatonic are arospec or acespec in some way, maybe there's some neurodivergent alloromantic allosexual people who may use it but otherwise I'd be wary of an alloromantic allosexual person using aplatonic and defining it as "I don't love my friends", and even more wary of it being used as a random example by someone else for why aplatonic wouldn't be included in a community.  It's not just the definition, it's the statement as a whole that comes across like exclusionist rhetoric which I find hurtful.

***

This....didn't need to turn into a debate? You could've just acknowledged that what you said came across as hurtful/you would try to do better in the future, and moved on? Instead of debating me that it isn't hurtful when I'm telling you it is.

On 6/6/2020 at 11:59 AM, Coyote said:

Magni stoops to addressing me directly, eh.

I find this to be passive aggressive and entirely unnecessary.  Also your paraphrasing has an entirely different connotation and context then the quote you cite in your justification.  And like....when I, as an aplatonic-spec person, tell you that I find what you're saying about aplatonic people to be offensive, the proper response would be to stop and think about how what you're saying comes across negatively and ask for clarification if needed, not to dismiss my concerns and further justify yourself.

On 6/6/2020 at 1:27 AM, Magni said:

On 6/5/2020 at 4:12 PM, Coyote said:

That's the question though, would an alloromantic allosexual have any reason to want to identify with the ace & aro umbrellas like that? I mean, if someone's like "I don't love my friends," I don't see what that necessarily has to do with me. I'm not preemptively ruling it out, just asking what the rationale is supposed to be.

@CoyoteI don't like how you seem to be equating aplatonic with, like, just some allo person going "I don't love my friends"? It reminds me of exclusionist rhetoric and the ways people have ridiculed the term aplatonic.  (idk how to word this better rn but can try to elaborate later if needed)

I will elaborate on why I had a problem with your comment.  It wasn't just the flippant definition of aplatonic you used, but the rest of the context and how it is similar to exclusionist rhetoric.

Exclusionists would say stuff like "oh a cis heteroromantic heterosexual person who doesn't have friends can just say they're aplatonic and pretend to be lgbt" and just generally ridicule it as a term a lot.  Do you understand how what you said comes across similarly to that?

9 hours ago, Coyote said:

That's the question though, would an alloromantic allosexual have any reason to want to identify with the ace & aro umbrellas like that? I mean, if someone's like "I don't love my friends," I don't see what that necessarily has to do with me. I'm not preemptively ruling it out, just asking what the rationale is supposed to be.

@CoyoteI don't like how you seem to be equating aplatonic with, like, just some allo person going "I don't love my friends"? It reminds me of exclusionist rhetoric and the ways people have ridiculed the term aplatonic.  (idk how to word this better rn but can try to elaborate later if needed)

***

sidenote, I think it makes more sense for aplatonic to be included in a-spec whereas I don't think it makes sense for agender.

42 minutes ago, yurihands said:

If you believe that gender can be this giant colorful spectrum, and that trans and nonbinary can both be overlapping umbrellas, then why can't it be like that for the aspectrum?

 

@yurihands I am really confused by your logic? are you still talking about agender being included in a-spec at the end of this? Like, I understand the point made in each main paragraph but the last bit seems ambiguously phrased in and of itself and the connection to previous parts doesn't seem clear.
***
I categorize agender under nonbinary, not a-spec, a-spec is ace & aro spectrums.....hmmm maybe should draw out how picture the umbrellas or something.  Agender is under the "A" in the acronym but I don't think it should be included in a-spec and I believe including it in the term a-spec would really take away from the term as it is the only single word that can be used to describe ace & aro, which is commonly useful due to the organizational overlap between the two communities.

useful new sources:

Article by Dr. Bella Depaulo, the author who has written about singlism: https://blogs.psychcentral.com/single-at-heart/2020/05/people-who-are-aromantic-are-they-targets-of-bigotry/ (mentions aromantic people being targets of bigotry)

Article about Peridot from Steven Universe being aromantic asexual: https://www.cbr.com/steven-universe-crystal-gem-confirmed-asexual-peridot/ (might have to carefully phrase this one based on the extent of it being confirmed, but this seems like reasonable source to be using for it).
 

@Apathetic Echidna
amatonormativity has it's own page, so there's definitely sources for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amatonormativity
the amatonormativity page also does mention aromanticism so evidently some of the sources discuss the link.  Suppose that means we need focus more about the link with amatonormativity to aro community then as much about the term itself, but yeah I don't really think lack of sources is a huge problem on that one.

16 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I thought about Sheldon Copper

Sheldon Cooper might be canonically asexual but in later series he does get a girlfriend and gets married so I wouldn't consider him aromantic.  Also, he's not good representation for various reasons and is not mentioned in the asexual article either.

For in the media, I think it would make sense to open section talking about how hard to get canon word representation, if can find an article about that.  I know I found one article discussing Katniss from hunger games as aromantic which could be considered proper source.  

Another thing for "In the Media" section is irl people; we could list Yasmin Benoit, her wiki page mentions her being aromantic so should be easy to get a source for that.
***

I went through and accepted all of the edits on the document.  It's great seeing things being put into words and stuff!

Reminder to put sources in for things; the amatonormativity section looks like it needs sources? so if could link things there that would be great; the final formatting of citations can be a bit difficult but for now just making sure have links is good enough; I'm fairly competent at doing the proper citations stuff and can do that later as needed.  Oh also, if don't necessarily have a source currently, can also be good to just put in parentheses "(Source needed)" or something.

***

For culture, aro white rings and arrows would be good if can find a source, though I'm more confident that we can find stuff talking about the flag.

for more on legal stuff and discrimination, can discuss discrimination and exclusion from queer community and also discuss lack of legal protections? can look at asexual article for parallels on that.  Also like....things that explicitly cover sexual orientation would cover asexuals but not aromantics.

It also occurred the me that we might be approaching this from the wrong angle; while eventually we want to have a completed comprehensive individual article, the best way to do that would probably be by adding more content to the existing entry to make it bigger to such that it becomes clear it needs its own article.  The way wikipedia articles are broken up, there's sections which are seperated with title above a line and then below that there can be subsections with bolded subheadings; currently, aromanticism is one of the underlined sections so can work towards creating content for bolded subsections below it.  I think adding the subsection "community", and talking about history/organizations for aro stuff along with stuff about the pride flag and stuff about arospec awareness week should be reasonably feasible.  Another section might be "in the media" which could reasonably be added, though might be harder to find stuff that can justify.

I have made a tumblr post with the call of submissions to help spread it there: https://aromagni.tumblr.com/post/619778331642118144/june-2020-call-for-submissions-most-precious

(and lol....am kinda tempted to make an aro ring in lotr style bc "precious", might do that if end up in the mood for that kind of creative this month).

So, both andro- and gyno- are from greek and mean man and woman respectively.  There are problems with gyno- bc the prefix tends to be associated with afab bodies, but I don't think the same issues really extend to androsexual? Andro- is also the prefix used for androgynous and stuff so it as a prefix doesn't have weird connotations which make it potentially a problem.

Another more vague term would be diamoric, which is a term for nonbinary attraction that doesn't neatly fall into the usual binary.  This page has more info and also some other terms: https://lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Diamoric

Another term in that link is Marsic, which is nonbinary attraction to men or masculine aligned people, so perhaps that term would work well for you?

A positive theme is good for this month! though tbh my first thought about "Most Precious" is lord of the rings.  Also, if you don't have a post for it on tumblr, I can make a post boosting it there if you'd like?

So I reorganized the sections in the article draft document based on feedback there.  Also, I made a new link: with this link, you should be able to suggest edits which I can then approve; for actually editing things, it's a good way to collaborate and write stuff and is better than comments.  I think new outline for article flow is better and more similar to existing wikipedia pages, though we can make final decisions on organization and section names later on.

I noticed that the asexual wiki links to asexualawarenessweek.com so apparently wikipedia considers something like that a reputable source; I added a link to the arospec awareness week website and I think that section would be reasonably easy for someone to type up?

I can help outline and find sources for things but I'm not great at actually putting the things into words, so if someone else would like to start trying to do that part, that would be great.

I figured it would be a good idea to make a thread where people can post about various things the aro community is doing during pride month this year, especially since a lot of pride is occurring online this year.  I'm gonna start off posting a few things I know about and I encourage other people to post links to other things they know are happening.

• aromantic-official on tumblr will be having weekly prompts, as seen in this post.  They'll post with more specific prompts on the themes each week.
• Aggressively arospec week will be from June 21st-27th and will be hosted on both tumblr and twitter, as seen in this post.  It is a "week long event promoting creation of arospec fancontent by arospec creators".

I'll post more things as I see them throughout the month and I encourage others to post things as well, to help facilitate the spread of information in a centralized location.  Happy Pride month everyone!

I have not had the focus to actively work on this, but I see someone has left comments on the google doc which is good.  Reminder to send me a message if you want to be specifically added to the google doc so can edit it directly. (also just generally wanted to post an update of sorts here to bring it back up in uh notification stream as nudge to people that this is a thing that trying work on).

so, there's a lot of overlap of genderqueer with stuff like butch lesbians bc queering gender and stuff (I'm not explaining that the best, but there is history of overlap), so I'd say that yeah you could definitely be a genderqueer lesbian.  There's people who identify as nb lesbians etc too.  One open-ended definition of lesbian I've heard is "People who aren't men who are attracted to people who aren't men", so looking at it that way could be helpful?  Also like.....there's lots of discourse originating from parts of the lesbian community that are very exclusionary/gatekeeping and tbh there's not much point caring about what exclusionists think of the labels you use, just use the labels that are most comfortable for you.

I find stuff like discord servers is great for online social interaction, especially bc it is a more group setting as opposed to one-on-one.  In discord servers I'm on, people have been hanging out in voicechat while someone streams playing a game or have been watching streams of shows using Kosmi; perhaps something like that would work well for you?

From what I understand, the original usage of the "A" in LGBTA was for "Alliance", rather than allies.  Which is a nuanced difference, but I think originally it was more about being an alliance between these different queer identity groups, but then people started changing it to allies, then ace & aro communities were like wait if the A is representing any group of people it should be us not straight allies.