What is gender identity, really? (Help)

[Fox]

I know the definition is that it's an innate, internal sense of what your gender is. Can anyone elaborate on what this sense feels like? Is it something you just know?

I have inclinations towards different gender expressions on different days. Like, one day I'll want to wear feminine clothing, and another day masculine clothing. Some days I'll want a male body, and other days a female body, and most days I don't really care. Are these gender expressions, or are they indications of a changing gender identity? What's really the difference or the connection between gender identity and gender expression? 

I don't really understand how to "sense" or "know" my gender, I just understand some days I feel like a skirt and other days a sweatshirt (for example.)

Any help or advice would be appreciated, thank you.

[smac n cheese]

This could mean you're genderfluid, you should probably look it up! Of course, no one can tell you what you identify as, and it may not be the right label for you, but it's a suggestion.

[Fox]

2 minutes ago, smac n cheese said:

This could mean you're genderfluid, you should probably look it up! Of course, no one can tell you what you identify as, and it may not be the right label for you, but it's a suggestion.

Thank you for the suggestion! I am considering that label right now, and it's nice to hear from another person. 

My only reservation with it, is does it mean your identity is clearly changing? Because I'm not sure if it's my identity that is changing, or my gender expression. Or maybe my expression is indicative of my identity? Maybe I'm overthinking this lol

[smac n cheese]

I think it's identity, but I'm not sure.

[Fox]

I've come to understand that, really the only gender identities I shied away from labeling myself with were 100% male and 100% female. I've felt close to it, and perhaps demiboy/demigirl or fem/masc nonbinary could describe me on different days. I've realized gender fluidity is just about a changing gender, and I don't need to necessarily identify as 100% man or 100% woman at any given point to be considered gender fluid. (If I am mistaken here though, please correct me, this is just how I'm understanding it right now.)

[The Newest Fabled Creature]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:13 PM, Fox said:

I've come to understand that, really the only gender identities I shied away from labeling myself with were 100% male and 100% female. I've felt close to it, and perhaps demiboy/demigirl or fem/masc nonbinary could describe me on different days. I've realized gender fluidity is just about a changing gender, and I don't need to necessarily identify as 100% man or 100% woman at any given point to be considered gender fluid. (If I am mistaken here though, please correct me, this is just how I'm understanding it right now.)

There are some genderfluid people who may feel and even call themselves male/men, female/women, or non-binary when their fluidity lands them experiencing those genders, but then there are genderfluid people who only identify as genderfluid, even when they may feel some type of maleness or masculinity, or femaleness or femininity, or neutrality. A genderfluid individual who experiences being a  man or a woman is a valid man or woman, but a genderfluid person who only labels themelf as genderfluid is completely valid as a genderfluid person, and is valid as non-binary(spec).

Edited March 26 by The Newest Fabled Creature

[DeltaAro]

So there will be a long disclaimer, that can be skipped (but then don't complain). CW: transphobia.

Spoiler

I sometimes feel unfairly treated when talking about gender. I mean, if what I say is offensive ... there are people like Julie Bindel out there, who really say outrageously nasty and hurtful stuff, and then publish it in The Guardian, a supposedly liberal magazine.

My problem is very simple: there is no meaningful definition of gender. Sadly, people then assume I'm pro-gender-essentialism, which is absolutely not true.

Essentialism is the ancient philosophy by Plato and Aristotle, claiming that things have a certain underlying reality or nature that makes them what they are. Aristotle even thought that slaves had a "slave essence", i.e. were naturally a slave (they couldn't make decisions for themselves and are only fit to serve), instead of recognizing the obvious truth that they were enslaved by society. So this is a philosophy that in the past was often used to justify all kinds of human rights abuses.

And for Bindel & Co, an AMAB person just is a man or boy because of their underlying "biological maleness," and nothing in the world can change that.

Now, essentialism about gender is wrong in multiple ways, mainly because:

1. The biological sex essence (which is then identified with gender) is just a metaphysical assumption. All attempts to explain what it is ("chromosomal configuration", "propensity to produce such or such gametes") are incoherent and refuted by technology anyway.
2. How society treats you doesn't depend on your assigned gender at birth. Like some misogynistic person doesn't care about your AMAB history, but will treat you as a woman if they categorize you as a woman.

Really, what lurks behind Bindel & Co's very thin veneer of "genuine concerns" is absurd at best and mostly just extremely, extremely hateful. In the past they did hide behind "genuine questions" and so those questions are sadly now associated with transphobia, which complicates things.

With that caveat, I still say: lots and lots of things have a meaningful definition without having an essentialist definition. And a definition can be flexible and vague, but still be meaningful.

Sadly, it's likely discarded as concern trolling, but I say it regardless: pro-trans activism gives no meaningful definition of gender. And this I fear won't end well.

E.g. maybe the UK is a special case, but you have ... the Prime Minister himself joking around that the Labour Party cannot define "woman" ... when the bereaved mother of a murdered trans girl was present in parliament!!

This was a shockingly crass remark in that context. He still doubled down on that, and got away with it. I guess, because in the end, there's some kernel of truth in there that IMHO can't be denied and gives him the rhetorical advantage.

Meaningful definitions IMHO are a very good and often necessary thing, something we should definitely aspire to have. But it's not like Mr. Sunak has something interesting to say about the topic: "A man is a man and a woman is a woman" is a tautology that doesn't tell us anything.

PS: If we can't get gender defined, as it seems like, then I'm for the radical position that gender should be decertified. Gender should be completely removed as a legal category that the state uses. Sounds like a moonshot, but IMHO it's the right thing to do.

PPS: Obviously, we know from many trans people that they care very, very much about their gender and even experience gender dysphoria. But for me as an outsider, this seems to boil down more to gender presentation and tangible physical changes, like hormone replacement therapy, which people should just get because they have the right to decide about their own body.

On 3/6/2024 at 3:27 AM, Fox said:

I know the definition is that it's an innate, internal sense of what your gender is. Can anyone elaborate on what this sense feels like? Is it something you just know?

It is absolutely mysterious to me.

To identify the internal sense of gender, shouldn't one tell people what this sense is about?!

Compare that to "aromantic": Terms like "romantic attraction" are certainly very vague. But we still have some rough idea what romance is, we can point to it, give examples. And we learn that most people feel a mental pull or motivational force towards engaging romantically with someone, which we call romantic attraction.

You cannot easily confuse "romantic attraction" with something totally different, like "desire to play video games" (ok, not talking about Otome games 😉). This makes the term meaningful.

"Sense of gender" is NOT like that. Previously I believed that it was about how we relate to masculinity, femininity. But what is the relation? How do we relate? What does that even mean, since e.g. a woman can embrace femininity or reject it, and both options are "fine"?

Also, I wrote somewhere else:

On 1/30/2024 at 1:13 AM, DeltaAro said:

what even is femininity and masculinity? A set of attributes, behaviors, and roles? In that case, they are Mandelbrot-like complex, with exceptions and exceptions to exceptions. E.g. The Warrior is the archetype of masculinity: the male symbol ♂ represents the shield and spear of Mars. But ok, there are female warriors, what to do with them? We expect them to wield elegant "feminine" weapons like rapiers or naginatas. Not a war hammer! So you can at least be feminine in your unfemininity. Amazing.

And then you have xeninity. Now we're going to be very nice, respectful and accepting, and explicitly repeat that xenogender people are valid.

But with xeninity taken seriously, literally anything that humans do and are can be considered gendered! It would be no contradiction saying "I feel my gender through playing video games" (Gamergender).

On 3/6/2024 at 3:27 AM, Fox said:

I have inclinations towards different gender expressions on different days. Like, one day I'll want to wear feminine clothing, and another day masculine clothing. Some days I'll want a male body, and other days a female body, and most days I don't really care. Are these gender expressions, or are they indications of a changing gender identity? What's really the difference or the connection between gender identity and gender expression? 

The difference between gender expression and identity is that the former is observable, while the latter is a subjective feeling.

But I've never ever come across an explanation regarding the connection between those two. It's really very obscure.

Personally, I don't like non-neutral (feminine or masculine) presentation, and avoid buying things that are advertised as gendered (clothing, accessories, cosmetics, fragrances ...). But I don't feel any connection from that to my gender identity. I'm more fighting against being gender-manipulated by giant corporations.

On 3/6/2024 at 3:27 AM, Fox said:

I don't really understand how to "sense" or "know" my gender, I just understand some days I feel like a skirt and other days a sweatshirt (for example.)

I would suggest you use:

• agender
• genderfluid
• nonbinary

Edited March 23 by DeltaAro