CharCharChar

Ooo! I like the word "aroqueer"

Welcome!

You could describe the feelings you had that you think might be romantic. 
You could describe what about the person you felt attracted to, or what you think triggered the attraction, or what you wanted to do with the person. 
You could describe how often or in what circumstance you think you are feeling romantic attraction.
You could describe the kind of relationship you want (or don't want). 

Some words to consider if you're having trouble describing the feeling:
glowing, safe, electric, warm, happy, calm, cuddly, desperate, longing, giddy, excited, curious, anxious, tense, loose, self-conscious, pulled-in, alive, awake, confident, whole

(it's still going to be you who picks the label that makes sense to you)

24 minutes ago, aro-fae said:

As a grayro person, I consider myself aromantic much more than I consider myself aro-spec. 

I know it doesn't fully make sense, but I feel the same way and I'm glad to see someone thinks this way too. 

I tried sharing the dodra- idea (my understanding of it at least) and it seems like it might be a standard gray experience that people didn't understand making a term for. 
So I put up a poll to see how many grays experience it the "dodra" way already. I guess I would let go of dodra (personally) if it's a standard gray experience.

But you do what you want with dodra

https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/204388-question-for-grays-not-demis/

I put a follow up poll on AVEN to see how common this "inbetween secondary and primary" attraction is for grays (also relevant to grayros who don't ID as demi if you want to pop over and vote). 

Perhaps my real issue is that "secondary attraction / secondary traits" is an extremely broad category.

@Rolo
Because the person experiences attraction rarely, and in those rare instances it's specifically from traits that are after "primary" but still doesn't take the deep/long connection of "demi". 

Point of interest from AVEN crosspost. 

There were concerns that feeling attraction after getting to know someone is just a normal aspect of attraction, and "gray" is sufficient. 

AMENDMENT: I intend "dodra" for those who already feel "gray" and are looking for a word to describe their specific "gray" experience. 
2nd AMENDMENT: "No one will understand what you mean" and "A super specific label isn't useful" are arguments against microlabels as a whole, which is not the purpose of this post. 

Where does attraction after a first conversation go in terms of primary and secondary attraction? In that you've become aware of personality traits / interests / shared experiences and then feel attraction?

In my few blips of ?emotional/romantic/alterous? attraction, it was what I would consider "after primary and before secondary". I recently talked to someone who had a similar set up for a type of attraction they experienced. 

I'd like to propose "dodra" as a prefix for this middle ground between primary and secondary attraction.

Does anyone have concerns/questions? 

Why not just use demi?
I feel like there's an important connotation around slowness and the emotional bond that separates demi from allo, that 1) I don't want to undermine demi and 2) I don't feel like demi accurately describes my experience. 
Why not just use gray?
Because it made me really happy to stumble upon someone with this inbetween primary and secondary experience, and I think a word would be helpful.
Maybe we should adjust the meaning of secondary attraction / or have a word for "quick secondary" vs. "prolonged secondary"?
Sure that could be helpful, but I think it's harder to adjust a pre-existing and widely used term/model. 

Do you disagree that secondary has a longer-than-the-first-encounter connotation?

Terms / Justification

Demi is a prefix for 1/2.
Dodrant is a prefix for 3/4. 
Dodrant doesn't work well as a prefix so I shortened it to "dodra," which I googled and it doesn't look like dodra has a different meaning. 

Primary attraction is based on immediately or very quickly known traits like appearance and the sound of their voice. 

Secondary attraction is defined as "developing over time" which technically could mean a few minutes, but I feel it's usually used to mean days to months. 
If allos (1) have primary attraction and demis (1/2) have secondary attraction, then dodra (3/4) could be used for inbetween primary and secondary attraction. 

[I crossposted this to AVEN a moment ago]
https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/204382-demi-and-dodra/

I've learned that "ace" means "asexual spectrum" -- (though some think "ace" should mean "just asexual no spectrum")

Does "aro" mean "aromantic spectrum"? Does "aromantic" mean "aromantic spectrum"? I've noticed saying "arospec" and "aromantic spectrum" seems to be more common than "acespec" and "asexual spectrum" and I don't know if that's from the aro community wanting to signal spectrum inclusion more often, or if it's from the aro community using aro and arospec as not the same, or maybe it's a coincidence. 

Sadly google searches didn't get me a clear answer. 

https://charcharcharace.blogspot.com/2020/10/internalized-arophobia-be-nice.html
TW: internalized arophobia

I made the blog post on this topic for Carnival of Aros. 
Thanks for the feedback and support ?

Depending on how you interpret it, you might be experiencing "secondary sexual attraction" which is what some definitions of demisexuality use instead of emotional bond.

"A sexual attraction that develops over time based on a person's relationship and emotional connection with another person."
http://wiki.asexuality.org/Primary_vs._secondary_sexual_attraction_model?title=Primary_vs._secondary_sexual_attraction_model

Personally, for the rare times I MIGHT have experienced platonic/romantic/emotional attraction, it was within the initial conversation, which doesn't fit into the usual connotation of secondary attraction because it's "too fast". But technically, personality and the experiences they've had that you relate to are all secondary traits. 

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If you want a more specific term for your experience and can't find it, you could create one.

I brainstormed some terms - but since you didn't *ask* for people to make up terms, I spoilered it. 

Let me know if you think of a good term (or find one) for inbetween primary and secondary attraction. Sesquipedalian (1.5) Attraction would be such a mouthful. Or if you find another definition of secondary attraction. 

Rmph.

great

2 hours ago, Vhenan said:

I'm scared of being unable to form connections with people. I've had multiple disillusionment with "friends" and, now, it seems my "friendships" don't go any further than the surface. They're just fun people I talk to sometimes. I used to care a lot, and now I don't. I don't even feel lonely anymore and that scares me. Don't know why. I should be happy that I don't feel the need to have friends, but I'm not. 

Feelings are valid and don't have to make sense. To me your feelings make sense because losing touch with any emotion (even a "negative" one like loneliness) is a form of loss and could be making you feel "less human". I experience "emotional flatlining" where my emotions are muted or delayed, and on the one hand I like not dealing with emotions //which is possibly why this is happening  //, on the other hand I feel like I "ought to fix" my emotional health. It's not a perfect comparison and I don't have an answer, but you aren't alone. 

I recently found the word aplatonic and I love it. (There's 3+ definitions out there, and I sort of mush multiple definitions together for myself.) 

There's certainly that voice of doubt going "Really Char? You think it's okay to not have any kind of deeper human connection?". But this is about being happy. Yes, a deep human connection with someone is a piece of being happy for many, but feeling obligated to fake or seek out deep connections wasn't making me happy. I'll just have to find happiness elsewhere

Welcome! I also came from AVEN, or rather I was on AVEN first and meandered my way here. 

I like the relative quiet. It's cozy

Disclaimer: I've had this disagreement before where others feel "the out group should not speak on behalf of the in group," which I agree with, however I feel I am not "speaking on behalf of" others, but rather summarizing what I've learned and adding on from my own experience. I accept this is likely going to be an agree to disagree situation 

@Jot-Aro Kujo

I didn't mean to imply that erotica is truth. I feel erotica (moreso for demi/allo and ace/allo soft erotica) gives a glimpse into the author's experience of sexual attraction, even though the work itself is not true to reality. There have occasionally been descriptions of thoughts and feelings in erotica that stood out to me as what I don't experience, and that line up with theories of sexual attraction I've read elsewhere and conversations I've had with allosexual friends. All of which informs my perception of what sexual attraction is.

I wasn't speaking specifically to the allosexual aromantic experience. I should have been clearer that I don't think all allosexuals experience sexual attraction the same way. Some have described a visceral feeling like electricity, and some such as yourself do not. 

I feel an ace perspective on what sexual attraction is is useful to this conversation. I had to cobble together a concept of sexual attraction to define myself against. The original poster may also have to do this.  

I feel your POV as one allosexual is incredibly valuable, but incomplete. Someone who is questioning benefits from knowing alternate definitions I've learned (such as visceral) as well as my ace POV on when thinking "I want to have sex with this person" has secondary influences and isn't sexual attraction. 

I genuinely appreciate that you believe I didn't intend harm. While I don't believe discussing the definition of sexual attraction should be left to those who experience it, I see how I should have been clearer that 1) it's a definition I'm choosing, not one I would prescribe to everyone 2) allosexuals tend to describe 0-1 elements of my defintion

((Wanted to add how grateful I am that so far Arocalypse has had very respectful disagreements, and as someone who loves to dissect ideas and is sometimes surprised I've upset someone, I greatly appreciate being calmly disagreed with - especially when I learn I should phrase something more carefully in the future and not upset people. I strongly dislike upsetting people  ))

[Update: At the time, I didn't notice this question was for alloaros. My apologies.] 

Rats. I love this question, but you've already gotten great advice. Well I'm going to share my two cents anyway. 

I like to think of sexual attraction as a visceral feeling accompanied by the thought "I want to have sex with you" without any qualifiers like connection, or experimentation, or societal expectations, or whatever sex-favorable aces feel (who are valid, I just don't know and don't think I should guess). [I'm a no-attraction ace, but I read erotica and theories so that's where my definition comes from.] [Update: I clarify in a later post that I know erotica is not an accurate depiction of allosexuality.]

Words are tools to help you understand yourself and communicate your wants/needs/limits to others. Sexual attraction is a wibbly-wobbly word without a set definition. It's your choice what definition helps you. Only you can find the line between sex-favorable and sexual attraction for youself. While I'm a big advocate for using the labels you feel fit you - remember that you don't have to pick labels if it's too messy/unclear/stressful. Instead you could tell a potential partner about your feelings around wanting sex and possibly being ace and maybe picking a label in the future and maybe not. 

On 10/15/2020 at 1:49 PM, Robin. said:

 If I am why not women, is it gender dysphoria, internalized misogyny?

Having different types of attraction to different genders just happens. It isn't necessarily caused by anything. 

Then it *could* be caused by something, and this is a question I ask myself. But have come to the conclusion it is unknowable. 

23 minutes ago, arohoneybee said:

you deserve to love yourself for who you are.

That's such a great way of putting it!

@tripleAqueer: I want to talk about #aromantic rep

(Here's a post you might find useful)

And if you make a survey I'm happy to share it around. 

Where is this "what's on your mind?" box? 

I swear I've used forums just like this before. I'm becoming suspicious there's a glitch with my account. 

I feel like it would have been easier for me to realize I was aro, and then for me to be comfortable being aro, if I had examples of people being aro in the world (or fiction). If I had known I was aro, I could have made different choices around dating and avoided painful experiences. Therefore lack of representation can be harmful to aros. 
I feel like what representation there is looks a lot like a character who happens to not be dating during the story. While lines like "I'm aro I don't date" can help spread awareness aromanticism exists, I don't feel my aro identity is explored and reflected in the media. 

Aspec representation is one of my interests. I want to make life a little better for people like me who don't know it yet by promoting aspec titles and lists. 

You can use my comments in your project. Here is a list of aspec fiction (and other media) databases and lists. 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yl1xsU2V_uXNfcw2g1iut6gBAizuQ4NxGDjqcO7tCaQ/edit#bookmark=id.nlntcw23pelm

I've got to remind myself that deconstructing an internalized stereotype is often easier than I predict it will be. Especially since I've had practice doing this for other aspects of myself. 

After just a few journaling exercises and short conversations, I feel my belief shifting from "it's not nice to think aromanticism isn't nice, and logically I know that's a stereotype"    to    "it's not true that aromanticism isn't nice."

I'm not saying "I'm done", but the "not nice" stereotype was bothering me the most and I can breathe easier now. It's unpleassant to value being "nice" while holding the perception that an aspect of yourself is "not nice". 

@Vhenan I'm good with blunt ? 

The "it makes sense to" comment was about past incidental participation before I reflected on why/if aro is important to me, it's not my reason for being here now. 
My theory is that prioritizing my aro identity --> will help me be more comfortable with my aro identity ---> will make it easier to be happy.

But it's a good point that I'm not obligated to prioritize my aro side until it's "equal" to my ace side, and I'm not obligated to be active in the aro community because I'm aro. 
Although, I subscribe to the philosophy that as a content creator I have a moral obligation to understand the larger concerns and intersections of my identity-communities to reduce the risk that my identity-content causes harm. But this "moral obligation" can be fulfilled with spot checks. I'm choosing to explore further for myself. 

I enjoy introspection and advocacy and talking to people. I want to be here. 

Trigger: discussion of arophobia

The prompt this month for Carnival of Aros is about whether or not and how you prioritize your aro identity. 

The truth is I don't. I'm aro-inclusive in my projects, but that's about being a good ally not because I'm aro too. I joined the carnival of aros, but that's just because I joined the carnival of aces and it makes sense to do both as an aroace. I hosted an aro ace panel, but that's because I was volunteering for an ace event. I still have the mindset that it's unfortunate not to be alloromantic and have access to the normative "happily ever after". 

There are steps I can take to deconstruct my internal arophobia, but I don't have to rush into it. I can join this forum. I can make vague plans to read more aro fiction. I can get amped for AroWriMo and collect aro writing prompts. 

But it's not an aro emergency. I recognize there are other prioritize in my life right now (both time wise and emotional energy wise). I can lay the ground work now, inch forward in the coming months, and attempt a deep dive in February while the community is amped up for ASAW. 

So ... I here. ?

This is a question I've been mulling over for myself. (though not exactly the same details).

I've come to the conclusion it's not that I secretly think "trans men aren't men" or afab enbies are "women-light."
I think it's that I have a level of comfort and comradery with fellow AFABs, and a level of learned anxiety and distrust towards those raised in toxic masculinity.

Another theory I have is that the few people I've felt some form of attraction to are those who shake up gender expression expectations (whether that's crossing the binary or just being unique within their gender norms). I think this is more about how they are speaking out against the gender norms that trap me (even before I realized I'm agender) or have potential to be a solid friend due to this rebelliousness/confidence and it's not specifically about their gender. 

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((Also just want to throw it in there that having phobic assumptions doesn't make us "bad". It's part of being human and it's important to process them so we don't unintentially harm others.)) For example, I've realized I need to shake my stereotype that transmen are "adorable tea-drinking city-dwellers." The problem is I watch one youtuber transguy so much, that it's overriding my logical knowledge that transmen are as diverse as everyone else. ((But that's on me and not the youtuber))

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I find this raises interesting questions -- does the "problematicness" of attraction to a gender/assigned-sex combo lessen if it's not romantic/sexual attraction which can be linked to power-dynamics / claiming / entitlement, whereas platonic/aesthetic/other attractions don't have a negative connotation. Is is possible to feel attraction to specific gender/assigned-sex combos in a non-problematic way? Does your own gender/assigned-sex combo play into if it's problematic or not? 

Being asexual/aromantic, I have been wondering how current-genitalia/assigned-sex play into gendered attraction, but now I'm really getting off topic.