[Please remove]

[paporomantic]

7 minutes ago, paporomantic said:

Hey all, long time, no talk 

 

As the author of this thread  that turned into a can of worms, I beg the moderating team to lock the thread permanently or, better, move it out of the public area of the forum to the 'graveyard' or whatever the admod-only area is called where 'essentially deleted' threads rest in peace.

 

Thank you and sorry for the mayhem. May everyone achieve inner tranquility 

[Tal Shi'ar]

As I am grey ro and ace, I do get some limited attraction to people. Until recently I identified as hetero grey, but then started using gyne instead. For me, it's possible to be attracted to anyone who's feminine enough, whether they're pre-op trans, to cis female, to possibly a male who's feminine enough in looks and behaviour.

 

That being said, I've never been in a relationship, nor do I feel like I need to be in one. Same goes for sex. I just don't really get enough of an urge or whatever to actually feel inclined to partner up with anyone in any way.

[paporomantic]

29 minutes ago, Tal Shi'ar said:

As I am grey ro and ace, I do get some limited attraction to people. Until recently I identified as hetero grey, but then started using gyne instead. For me, it's possible to be attracted to anyone who's feminine enough, whether they're pre-op trans, to cis female, to possibly a male who's feminine enough in looks and behaviour.

 

The chemistry of romance is indeed hardly dependent on whether the partner is cis* or trans*, but the problem is that the body constitution  does matter in the mechanics of sex.

 

TMI

Spoiler

For example, the 'scissors' position is barely viable in an encounter of a cis-female lesbian with a pre-op trans-woman because the cis-woman would like not to have male genitals rubbing against her body. The difference between cis* and trans* is even more noticeable in male sex because a pre-op trans-man has to put a dildo on if he wants to emulate any sort of 'penis' penetration.

 

[omitef]

Heyo, so I'm a trans guy and this a very personal question for me. Here's the way I see it. DISCLAIMER: The following views are only mine, and don't represent all trans people. 

 

TW: discussion of genitalia, transphobia, venting(?)

 

If you're a guy, you have male genitals. I don't consider my vagina to be "female genitalia," I consider it to be male genitalia, because I am male. I don't believe in "biological" gender--your body is whatever gender you are, period. Yes, physical gender dysphoria is a thing, but that's a result of your own chemistry working against you, not because it's an inherent fact that you have the "wrong" body. It's like how you can still feel depressed even though you know you have nothing to be depressed about. Your body does not make you any less of your gender. Just because I have a vagina doesn't mean I'm less of a man than a guy with a dick.

 

Also, we're socially conditioned to find vaginas on women more attractive, and penises on men more attractive, because society is transphobic. Unless you have genitalia-related PTSD, I think that "preferences" are really just a reflection of transphobic conditioning, and need to be challenged by people who have them. I know when I first came out, I had to confront a lot of internalized transphobia. I believed that no one would ever want me as a sexual partner because I didn't have a dick, that I couldn't have proper sex because I didn't have a dick. Likewise, I believed that no one would ever really want any "pre-op" trans person as a sexual partner because they were "not a real man/woman." 

 

I put "pre-op" in quotations because the more time I spent being out as trans, learning about other trans people's stories, the more I realised it's inherently transphobic to go around saying that you "prefer women with vaginas" or "prefer men with penises." Some trans people don't want to get bottom surgery or hormones. And non-binary trans people--where do they fit in within those preferences? Are the "effectively" men/women sexually based on their genitalia? And what about intersex people? Are we going to evaluate their worth as sexual partners based on how closely their genitalia comes to a vagina/penis? There are so many issues with "preferring" certain people to have a type of genitalia that it just really pisses me off that people brush it off as "preferences" when it's really just an excuse to discriminate against trans people, trans people who don't want to get surgery/go on hormones, non-binary people, and intersex people. 

 

 

 

 

[paporomantic]

13 hours ago, omitef said:

Spoiler

If you're a guy, you have male genitals. I don't consider my vagina to be "female genitalia," I consider it to be male genitalia, because I am male.

 

 

That's a valid point - I've edited the disclaimer clauses in the poll questions with it in mind.

 

13 hours ago, omitef said:

Spoiler

Also, we're socially conditioned to find vaginas on women more attractive, and penises on men more attractive, because society is transphobic.

 

 

TW: discussion of genitalia, transphobia

Spoiler

 

I agree that the omnipresence of transphobia is the main reason, but mind that there are heterosexuals who intrinsically prefer toyless PIV intercourse due to its distinct mechanic (different from, say, penetration into a fleshlight), which is their personal preference just like my preference for potatoes over eggplants. It's not like they're hiring for a governmental office - sex is a voluntary acitivity and they have the right to reject potential partners because reasons.

 

Another consideration, though, is whether 'heterosexual' is an accurate label for those who're sexually attracted only to cisgender and transsexual (post-op transgender) members of the opposite gender, or whether there needs to be a more accurate label for them.

 

Personally, I dislike intercourse more than oral sex, so I'd be less sensitive to body constitution even if I were hard-pressed to have casual sex, but that's me.

 

 

[morallygayro]

I'm a lesbian - of course I would have sex with a trans girl, but not a trans guy. Because I'm a woman and only into women and woman-aligned nonbinary people. It doesn't matter if she's cis, trans, or nonbinary, it doesn't matter if she's dyadic or intersex - womanhood just needs to be part of her gender in some way. That's literally the definition of a lesbian.

 

Also, if you're attracted to cis women but not trans women, you're a transphobe. If you're attracted to cis men but not trans men, you're a transphobe. Doesn't matter what kind of genitals they have.

[paporomantic]

5 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Also, if you're attracted to cis women but not trans women, you're a transphobe. If you're attracted to cis men but not trans men, you're a transphobe. Doesn't matter what kind of genitals they have.

 

Strictly speaking, being indifferent to someone is not the same thing as being against them.

[Rising Sun]

@morallygayro , Stop this ridiculous political correctness. Many people are attracted to biological sex rather than gender, that's a fact and they can't help it. They would be transphobes if they could change it and start being attracted to gender rather than sex. But they can't, because you can't change what you're attracted to, and if you're attracted to biological sex, you can't change that.

[morallygayro]

1 hour ago, Rising Sun said:

@morallygayro , Stop this ridiculous political correctness. Many people are attracted to biological sex rather than gender, that's a fact and they can't help it. They would be transphobes if they could change it and start being attracted to gender rather than sex. But they can't, because you can't change what you're attracted to, and if you're attracted to biological sex, you can't change that.

Political correctness?

 

I thought it was basic human decency.

 

Also, you can't actually tell if someone is trans. You see a hot girl walking out of a movie theater and you're attracted to her? She could be a trans girl. You see a hot guy at the mall and you're attracted to him? He could be a trans guy.

 

Beyond that, the "you're attracted to biological sex and not gender" argument only benefits cis transphobes and straight trans men who want to invade wlw spaces, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish considering that you're neither. It does seem like you have some internalized transphobia that you should address, though.

[Rising Sun]

I'm only stating facts. Many people are attracted to biological sex rather than gender, because some kinds of genitals literally turn them off. If you don't believe me, ask other persons. And please stop posting so aggressive things as if all cisgender straight persons were persecuting others. Your posts are extremely violent, that's annoying.

[morallygayro]

1 hour ago, Rising Sun said:

1 hour ago, aroMa(n)tisse said:

 

Strictly speaking, being indifferent to someone is not the same thing as being against them.

 

 

Exactly what is the difference between being attracted to a cis woman and being attracted to a trans woman? Nothing. They're both women.

 

But if you want to say that you're attracted to cis women and not trans women? Why? What is it about trans women that someone who is attracted to women would have blanket policies of excluding trans women from their sexuality?

 

Oh, right, they don't believe trans women are women. 

 

Which, you know, is transphobia.

[Rising Sun]

You really missed the point. Some people are turned off by a penis and if a woman has a penis, they just can't. It doesn't matter whether they admit that their partner is a woman. It's something they can't control or change, because if they could, I'm sure that they would. Sometimes what we're attracted to has unfair rules. For example, isn't it unfair in itself to be attracted to only one sex or one gender ? Shouldn't all people be pan, in an ideal world ? I'm sure that many people would be pan if they could. The thing is, they can't.

[morallygayro]

15 hours ago, aroMa(n)tisse said:

 

TMI

  Hide contents

For example, the 'scissors' position is barely viable in an encounter of a cis-female lesbian with a pre-op trans-woman because the cis-woman would like not to have male genitals rubbing against her body. 

 

Trans women aren't males, so their genitals aren't male either. Also I'm not sure why you, despite not being a wlw, seem so incredibly fixated on sex between women. It's creepy and fetishistic tbh.

14 minutes ago, Rising Sun said:

I'm only stating facts. Many people are attracted to biological sex rather than gender, because some kinds of genitals literally turn them off. If you don't believe me, ask other persons. And please stop posting so aggressive things as if all cisgender straight persons were persecuting others. Your posts are extremely violent, that's annoying.

"Extremely violent" yes, because straight cis people have been known to rape and kill others because of gender and sexuality, but I'm violent and aggressive for supporting other trans people online.

[Jade]

I can see why some people might not want to interact with certain genital configurations, but I see no reason as to why this would lead to unsatisfying sex with them, especially since you clearly stated that they'd be willing to participate in sex that doesn't involve their genitals.   While I can understand you might be slightly less happy if this means you can't fully enjoy some of your favorite sex acts, the same might happen with a cis person of your preferred gender who doesn't like those sex acts--all relationships involve compromise, a relationship with a trans person is no different.

 

Also, voted by accident because I didn't understand the poll (initially voted "I can be satisfied as much as if they were cis women", changed both votes to Abstain because I am a cis lesbian).

[paporomantic]

41 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Exactly what is the difference between being attracted to a cis woman and being attracted to a trans woman? Nothing. They're both women.

 

That's why I find it useful to distinguish between aesthetic and sexual attraction.

 

On the exterior, cis- and trans-women are the same, and I often find trans-women beautiful 

 

But (bearing in mind that I don't fully understand what sexual attraction is) I have boundaries when it comes to sexual consent.

 

One of my colleagues is a very pretty trans-woman who I'd love to be close friends with. She's now questioning her sexuality but has stated that she's definitely not asexual.

 

TMI

Spoiler

 

No matter how I like her, I'm not going to swallow her semen every time - I guess it's bitter just like my own. To be exact, I can try it once to taste specifically her fluid but I'm afraid I'll most likely have to discontinue the practice. I'm not sure if I'd be OK with sucking out on her without a condom and spitting her semen out. With a condom, though, I'd likely be OK.

 

If it comes to doing blowjobs on cis-women, I don't know if I'd be OK with doing it with no condom because I simply don't know how female fluids taste like.

 

 

[Rising Sun]

@morallygayro, Pre-op trans women do have male or at least intersex genitals. The thread is about "sex with a pre-op trans". "Pre-op" is clear.

Not all straight cis people are monsters, individuals are. Extremism is defined by the belief that violence should be fought with violence. That, you see, contrary to you, I don't believe in, and I avoid those ideologies like the plague. Which is why i'm now going to add your posts to my ignore list. Have fun posting the last word and feeling like a winner in your hateful mind. Bye.

[paporomantic]

6 minutes ago, Jade said:

I can see why some people might not want to interact with certain genital configurations, but I see no reason as to why this would lead to unsatisfying sex with them, especially since you clearly stated that they'd be willing to participate in sex that doesn't involve their genitals.  

 

So I thought, but then I decided to survey cis-lesbians' and cis-gays' opinions to gain more confidence in my assessment.

 

TMI

Spoiler

The problem is that I don't know how important vulva-to-vulva humping is in lesbian sex. I'm aware that it's less important than non-genital stimulation and oral sex, but I'm not sure if lesbians would typically be fully satisfied without VtV contact.

 

[omitef]

@Rising Sun Actually, preferences can be changed (unless it's PTSD, that's a separate issue). Confession: I used to have preferences. I used to be turned off by transwomen because I was like, "well, I can't do things like eat them out, finger them, etc." But then the more I thought about it, the less my preferences made sense to me. There were times when I'd look at pictures of sexually attractive women, get turned on, and then get really confused when I found out they were trans. Over time, I realised it didn't make sense to have preferences related to genitalia, because when you get sexually attracted to someone, you're attracted to their face, their butt, their boobs--you're attracted to parts of their body you can see immediately. And you can't see their genitals immediately. By the "genitalia matters" logic, you would be justified taking someone you were sexually attracted to into the bedroom, taking their pants off, and then saying, "no, sorry" and then refusing to do anything sexual with them because they didn't have cis genitalia. And that hurts. A lot. It's not just a matter of preferences...you're essentially saying that an entire group of people--trans, nonbinary, intersex--are sexually undesirable. Because we trans people will never have the same exact bio genitalia as cis people. That's a horrible pain to live with. 

 

And also I'd appreciate it a lot if the tone-policing would stop. To be frank, participating in this thread has been distressing for me, and I completely understand where @morallygayro's anger is coming from. I'm really frustrated that I have to sit down and try to civilly have a discussion about whether or not it's justified for other people to say that I'm sexually undesirable because I'm trans, to say that my siblings are undesirable because they're not cis or their genitals are not binary. Maybe I'm an outlier, and people really can't control their preferences. But I can't control who I am. My siblings can't control who they are. And I don't think preferences that negatively favour a group of already marginalized people deserve the same amount of respect as the marginalized people themselves. Having preferences is one thing. Having preferences that hurt people are another. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard trans people say that they feel like they are worthless because they've been told that they're sexually undesirable, solely due to their transgender identity. And that is wrong. No one should be made to feel undesirable for something that they can't control.

 

Does that make sense?

 

[morallygayro]

On 6/15/2016 at 2:04 PM, aroMa(n)tisse said:

 

That's why I find it useful to distinguish between aesthetic and sexual attraction.

 

On the exterior, cis- and trans-women are the same, and I often find trans-women beautiful 

 

But (bearing in mind that I don't fully understand what sexual attraction is) I have boundaries when it comes to sexual consent.

 

One of my colleagues is a very pretty trans-woman who I'd love to be close friends with. She's now questioning her sexuality but has stated that she's definitely not asexual.

 

TMI

  Hide contents

 

No matter how I like her, I'm not going to swallow her semen every time - I guess it's bitter just like my own. To be exact, I can try it once to taste specifically her fluid but I'm afraid I'll most likely have to discontinue the practice. I'm not sure if I'd be OK with sucking out on her without a condom and spitting her semen out. With a condom, though, I'd likely be OK.

 

If it comes to doing blowjobs on cis-women, I don't know if I'd be OK with doing it with no condom because I simply don't know how female fluids taste like.

 

 

Trans women's sexual fluids ARE female fluids. Everything about them is female.

 

And honestly, I've seen you make a lot of assumptions that LGBT women are interested in relationships with you. 

On 6/15/2016 at 2:05 PM, Rising Sun said:

@morallygayro, Pre-op trans women do have male or at least intersex genitals. The thread is about "sex with a pre-op trans". "Pre-op" is clear.

Not all straight cis people are monsters, individuals are. Extremism is defined by the belief that violence should be fought with violence. That, you see, contrary to you, I don't believe in, and I avoid those ideologies like the plague. Which is why i'm now going to add your posts to my ignore list. Have fun posting the last word and feeling like a winner in your hateful mind. Bye.

No. Trans women are female. They're always female, no matter what their bodies look like or what they're wearing. 

On 6/15/2016 at 2:09 PM, aroMa(n)tisse said:

 

So I thought, but then I decided to survey cis-lesbians' and cis-gays' opinions to gain more confidence in my assessment.

 

TMI

  Hide contents

The problem is that I don't know how important vulva-to-vulva humping is in lesbian sex. I'm aware that it's less important than non-genital stimulation and oral sex, but I'm not sure if lesbians would typically be fully satisfied without VtV contact.

 

Lesbian sex can involve anything, and it would be great if you could stop your creepy fixation on our sex lives.

 

Post Edited by Blue Phoenix Ace to remove reported content.

[paporomantic]

4 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

And honestly, I've seen you make a lot of assumptions that LGBT women are interested in relationships with you. We're not and you come across as creepy, entitled, and predatory when you assume that we are.

 

Thank you for voicing your opinion. Every third-party opinion about me matters because I have a skewed self-esteem and I'm afraid that I see myself differently from what other people perceive me as.

[Rising Sun]

@omitef, I never denied that this is unfair and sad. It is, absolutely. But sadly, unfair things can sometimes be changed, but not always. The mind never has complete control on instincts and vice versa. We've all done cruel things to other living beings in our lives and almost all of us feel guilty for at least part of these things, but sometimes feeling guilty is all we can do, sometimes because we would really like to change things but we just don't know how to do that...

And while I totally sympathize with frustration and sadness, I can't sympathize with violence whatever the reason is, and even more if it says that a whole group of people (in this case, all cisgender straight people) is fundamentally oppressive and evil. I don't believe in good vs evil, it's always more complex than that, and I refuse violence to the point where I stay away from strict ideologies and radical activism, because I've seen where it leads.

 

Edit : to give a more optimistic conclusion : we can't help what turns us on, but we can help what we love.

[morallygayro]

1 minute ago, Rising Sun said:

@omitef, I never denied that this is unfair and sad. It is, absolutely. But sadly, unfair things can sometimes be changed, but not always. The mind never has complete control on instincts and vice versa. We've all done cruel things to other living beings in our lives and almost all of us feel guilty for at least part of these things, but sometimes feeling guilty is all we can do, sometimes because we would really like to change things but we just don't know how to do that...

And while I totally sympathize with frustration and sadness, I can't sympathize with violence whatever the reason is, and even more if it says that a whole group of people (in this case, all cisgender straight people) is fundamentally oppressive and evil. I don't believe in good vs evil, it's always more complex than that, and I refuse violence to the point where I stay away from strict ideologies and radical activism, because I've seen where it leads.

Why can't we change it?

 

And, in case you haven't noticed, prejudice against straight cis people makes them sad. Then they go outside and find 800 people like them with a three mile radius, have their identities perceived as the default from birth, not be denied basic human rights, etc.

 

Prejudice against LGBT people results in self-harm, suicide, rape, poverty, addiction, eating disorders, homelessness, STIs contracted through survival sex work, physical assault, domestic abuse, and murder. The ~•~opinions~•~ that you express publicly against us only enable people who would harm us worse. And every cishet person expresses those opinions, or has at some point, to some degree, because society is fucked-up and people learn really toxic ideas from a young age. So I'm really not interested in your "#NotAllCishets" BS. You clearly have no idea how homophobia or transphobia even work, so it would be great if you could stop talking out of your ass about things you don't understand.

[Rising Sun]

I'm respectful enough to ignore your arguments to not have another thread locked. Do the same and don't answer my posts. I have nothing to answer to arguments advocating violence and hatred.

[Mark]

17 hours ago, aroMa(n)tisse said:

[Those who're sexually genderblind, such as bi/pan/asexuals,

Personally I don't like the term "genderblind". I'm no more blind to a person's gender than I am to their hair, eyes, height, skin, etc. It just isn't important.

[paporomantic]

@Mark What's the correct term for this (denoting someone for whom the partner's gender isn't important)?

 

Also, do you you know a good synonym for 'pre-op transgender' that is shorter than the clumsy 'non-transsexual transgender'? The term 'pre-op' is indeed cringeworthy because it implies that undergoing a GRS is a 'must' for a transgender, which it isn't.