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QPR Misinformation Is Not an Appropriate Vehicle for Aro Community Building

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4 hours ago, Coyote said:

Back on the topic of the original issue:

 

Given that there are many people frustrated with the real crimes of the ace community, and given that people keep talking about a fake crime instead of just focusing on the real crimes (and even citing this fake crime as an intracommunity grievance), what are some potential solutions here?

 

Hm... I'm not totally sure whether to read this as potential solutions to the "real crimes" or "fake crimes" - I'm thinking maybe you meant both? That's how I'm going to respond to it.

 

In terms of addressing misconceptions, I wish that there was more of a community-driven effort to not tolerate this kind of thing - much the way there is about not tolerating anti-gray nonsense. Though, I'm thinking this is a situation that requires a bit more delicacy, since, as your blog post points out, there often is a legitimate hurt there that deserves attention and to be addressed. Unlike the anti-gray bigotry which warrants a stronger response.

 

If you'll excuse the ace community example, I'm thinking much the way the ace community self-polices sex-negativity. In all the ace communities I've been a part of, bad mouthing others' sexual behaviors is unacceptable, but when its corrected it's often from a place of "I get why you feel this way, but saying that still hurts other people. Try framing it this way next time." Something like that.(And there may be some people already doing that, which is awesome!)

 

To move a bit away from the context of coinage and towards another common greivances relating to qprs - that alloromantic aces use the word to mean non-sexual romantic relationships. Personally, I haven't seen evidence to suggest that this is as pervasive a problem as it is sometimes framed as, but what I have noticed is that the one post I've seen that does this is one of the first results when you search queerplatonic on Tumblr. Which is a problem.

 

Seeing as the op has not responded to any of the corrections, I was thinking of ways of trying to combat that, and I think the best course of action there is to create a competing post (that's equally pretty, since I think that's a factor in why it spread). It wouldn't take down the other post, but it would hopefully provide enough conflicting information that people stop to think about which is correct. I'd been working on that with a couple other people and it fell through the cracks - I'm thinking it's time to start working on that again.

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8 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

The massive problem with the language you're using is that both of these words imply intent. People are misinformed about the history of the term "queerplatonic". They're not, in the vast majority of cases, actively trying to suppress it. Your language comes across as accusatory and that is not conducive to building bridges or reaching solutions. 

Indeed,  and I think it is important to remember that.

8 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

You know if you'd stated in your OP that this was the goal of your thread, it would have saved us all a lot of wasted time and miscommunication. 

That's so true that I suggest @Coyote should clarifier that in the first post.

 

8 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

I brought this up to the community admins, frankly with the sinking feeling that I'd be ignored and we'd have to end our partnership. But the admins in question took my comments deeply seriously, and are now planning a community announcement and adjustments to their rules to help ensure that aros are as welcome, in and of ourselves, as aces. 

I think that's a good example of how adressing an issue to the ones who are creating it can work. I think that explaining things to the people who are, willingly or unwillingly, created a problem is the best way to fix it. I mean, there is probably some people that don't care, but I want to believe that most people in this world don't mean to hurt other people, or make them feel excluded.

 

8 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

you couldn't pay me to wade back into Tumblr. 

Ha ha same. I mean, I never was into Tumblr, but 80% of the time when I hear about it, it is because something wrong happened there. I suspect that the best way to stop misinformation is to change thing in Tumblr (like, impossibilité to reblog a deleted content), but saddly this is something we have no control on.

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19 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:
On 12/19/2019 at 4:25 PM, Coyote said:

I consulted with some other people earlier about wording, and someone pointed out to me that instead of "revisionism," technically, a more accurate word would be "denialism."

The massive problem with the language you're using is that both of these words imply intent. People are misinformed about the history of the term "queerplatonic". They're not, in the vast majority of cases, actively trying to suppress it. Your language comes across as accusatory and that is not conducive to building bridges or reaching solutions. 

 

oh my god yes, the language that you use coyote is always implying bad intent!! it's like you agree that the root of the problem is misinformation and then say things like "revisionism" or "denialism" that imply bad intent and assign it to particular people too "aphobephobe had a friend repost" without giving them the benefit of the doubt... it's just hard to have a constructive discussion when you first have to defend the lack of bad intent again and again and again
 

20 hours ago, Coyote said:

Given that there are many people frustrated with the real crimes of the ace community, and given that people keep talking about a fake crime instead of just focusing on the real crimes (and even citing this fake crime as an intracommunity grievance), what are some potential solutions here?

 

see, I kinda don't know what the solutions could be... we can try to educate aros about the origins of qprs and correct misconceptions where we see them, but the reach of posts that clear things up is limited and not a lot of us go on tumblr where it seems to be the most spread misconception...

 

as for corrections in ace spaces... i don't go there and I'm not even sure what I'd want from explicitly ace spaces that i don't want from the rest of the world..?? it's not their responsibility to talk about aros or be especially good to aros any more than it's on the rest of the world is how I see it... my only idea that's for the benefit for aroaces in those spaces would be not to overdo it with "romance is best, romance is pure" and be aware that it's possible to be aro while not being ace (and don't say it's somehow morally wrong) 

 

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oh my god yes, the language that you use coyote is always implying bad intent!! it's like you agree that the root of the problem is misinformation and then say things like "revisionism" or "denialism" that imply bad intent and assign it to particular people too "aphobephobe had a friend repost" without giving them the benefit of the doubt... it's just hard to have a constructive discussion when you first have to defend the lack of bad intent again and again and again

I don’t think OP means to imply bad intent? It’s just that the words available to us in English (that aren’t clunky like prefacing “unintentional” onto “QPR revisionism/denialism/misinformation/what-have-you”) ALL have negative connotations.

 

Here’s the definition of “misinformation” that Googling pulls up: 

Quote

false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive.

(emphasis mine)

 

So using the word “misinformation” doesn’t solve that aspect. OP has already said earlier in this thread, “It was not my intention to discuss intentions (or rather, whether or not people are doing this deliberately).” It’s not Coyote’s fault that there’s no concise word for “false information that was spread” + no connotation of it being intentional. If there is one, I’m sure someone will bring it up sooner or later and then we can put the matter of the title being negative to rest. If there isn’t, all we can do is choose a tradeoff between “be very clunky with our wording” and “have negative connotations in the title.” As you say, we should give people benefit of the doubt. 

 

So: anyone have any wording suggestions that haven’t been written off already? Wait, actually, “misconception” is okay-ish. It doesn’t really have to do with the spread of ideas though—how to word the thing? “Spreading Misconceptions About QPRs is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations”? Does that still sound accusatory? Hm. Maybe “Spreading Misconceptions (Intentionally or Not) About QPRs is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations”? Ugh. That gets wordy. More suggestions would be nice. 

 

Anyway. Onto the unintentional-spread-of-false-info about QPRs problem and the actual amatonormativity in ace spaces problem. 

 

Quote

I think the best course of action there is to create a competing post (that's equally pretty, since I think that's a factor in why it spread)

I think Laura’s idea about the QPR thing is a good one to try. 

 

Quote

I'm not even sure what I'd want from explicitly ace spaces that i don't want from the rest of the world..?? it's not their responsibility to talk about aros or be especially good to aros any more than it's on the rest of the world is how I see it

I agree with this 100%. I think part of the problem is just amatonormativity and ignorance of aro issues in general. This probably can only be solved with more in-person activism and time. Like, the online world is good for finding other aromantic people in the first place if you’re aro & looking for it, but we as a community should probably look into getting out there more. (Online world may still play a part in this solution: more publications about aromanticism on more general sites?) It’s just...difficult to know where to start. I think a lot of us are frustrated by how big and nebulous and intractable the problem seems to be. 

 

Although, maybe the ace community is a good place to start with aro activism since they’re more likely to be aware of aromanticism existing in the first place. But then that gets into the problem where we want to be separate from and not always tied up with the ace community. Anyone got thoughts on that? 

 

Quote

for aroaces in those spaces would be not to overdo it with "romance is best, romance is pure" and be aware that it's possible to be aro while not being ace (and don't say it's somehow morally wrong) 

I think you mean “alloaces” for the “romance is best/pure” thing? I don’t see why aroaces would be saying that. 

Oh, yeah, big agree on the second things. I’m not that active in ace spaces, but the stuff Laura said about ace community self-policing sex-negativity (as opposed to individual sex-aversion/repulsion) seems good for the “it’s not morally wrong” thing, although that doesn’t seem to be alloaro specific. 

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24 minutes ago, kernsing said:

anyone have any wording suggestions that haven’t been written off already?

Mistake? 

Misconception maybe a good choice too; but English is not my first language so I can be wrong.

 

But then I guess it's up to @Coyote to decide if the title has to be changed or not.

 

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I'm happy to change the title if people can come to an agreement on what the new title should be.

 

Some candidates that have been brought up:

  • "QPR Minsinformation is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations"?
  • "QPR Mistakes are Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations"?
  • "Spreading Misconceptions About QPRs is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations"?
  • "Spreading Misconceptions (Intentionally or Not) About QPRs is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations"?
  • Something else?

 

 

1 hour ago, kernsing said:

OP has already said earlier in this thread, “It was not my intention to discuss intentions (or rather, whether or not people are doing this deliberately).”

 

Yes. I can say it again, if people like.

 

It was not my intention to discuss intentions (in the sense of deliberate vs. accidental). I have no particular way to know whether people are doing these things knowingly or unknowingly, so I make no particular statement on that.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I suggest @Coyote should clarifier that in the first post.

 

Done.

 

 

19 hours ago, LauraG said:

To move a bit away from the context of coinage and towards another common greivances relating to qprs - that alloromantic aces use the word to mean non-sexual romantic relationships. Personally, I haven't seen evidence to suggest that this is as pervasive a problem as it is sometimes framed as, but what I have noticed is that the one post I've seen that does this is one of the first results when you search queerplatonic on Tumblr. Which is a problem.

 

Seeing as the op has not responded to any of the corrections, I was thinking of ways of trying to combat that, and I think the best course of action there is to create a competing post (that's equally pretty, since I think that's a factor in why it spread).

 

Hmm... You're referring to this one, right? I think that's the same one that was brought up to me in another conversation about the topic.

 

Creating a new/better/more-accurately-worded infographic sounds like a promising idea. Currently, the bad one is sitting at... *checks* ...8,849 notes. If a new one were created, are there any big blogs that could help spread it just as far? 

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One thing that I think is important for us to keep in mind as we discuss intent...

 

Just because someone does this intentionally doesn't mean they are doing so with bad intent. While we all seem to be in agreement that spreading this misinformation is not a good thing, I think it's important to realize that recognizing that there may be intent behind some instances of this happening doesn't mean that that intent can't be good.

 

One thing I took away from Coyote's post was the entire idea that the intent behind misinformation on qprs (whether done knowingly or unknowing, and I believe both happen) is positive intent. People feel genuinely hurt by the ace community and worried that they'd lose a word that's important to them if they admit that it was the ace community and not the aro community that created the word. As someone who's been hurt by the misinformation, it was hard to keep this in perspective, but Coy's post helped me do that and I'm grateful.

 

(And one final note - if assuming positive intent is a value of yours, I encourage you to take a moment now to check in with yourself to make sure you are applying that principle evenly in this thread.)

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14 hours ago, kernsing said:

I don’t think OP means to imply bad intent? It’s just that the words available to us in English (that aren’t clunky like prefacing “unintentional” onto “QPR revisionism/denialism/misinformation/what-have-you”) ALL have negative connotations.

I mean that's what coyote says, yes!! but the words have their meaning and it often comes across as accusatory

pls check out an alternative title below

 

13 hours ago, Coyote said:

I'm happy to change the title if people can come to an agreement on what the new title should be.

 

I was thinking about sth closer to "misinformation on qprs in aro circles hinders conversations about real problems between aro and ace communities" 

 

13 hours ago, Coyote said:

If a new one were created, are there any big blogs that could help spread it just as far? 

I think that then it'd be useful to send it to big aro but also *ace* blogs, bc let's be real they have bigger followings

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3 hours ago, bydontost said:

I was thinking about sth closer to "misinformation on qprs in aro circles hinders conversations about real problems between aro and ace communities" 

That sounds good. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to make this more concise?

 

Maybe we can take out "in aro circles"? I don't think that alters the meaning too much. Maybe also "real problems between aro and ace communities" can just be "community relations". So "misinformation on qprs hinders conversations about community relations"

 

Perhaps this might also be a substance over style situation where it's better to have a wordy title that gets across the right impression.

 

3 hours ago, bydontost said:

I think that then it'd be useful to send it to big aro but also *ace* blogs, bc let's be real they have bigger followings

 

True. We can definitely make sure that happens too.

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6 minutes ago, LauraG said:
3 hours ago, bydontost said:

I was thinking about sth closer to "misinformation on qprs in aro circles hinders conversations about real problems between aro and ace communities" 

That sounds good. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to make this more concise?

 

Maybe we can take out "in aro circles"? I don't think that alters the meaning too much. Maybe also "real problems between aro and ace communities" can just be "community relations". So "misinformation on qprs hinders conversations about community relations"

 

Perhaps this might also be a substance over style situation where it's better to have a wordy title that gets across the right impression.

yeah this way it was a bit wordy, tho I'd keep "ace and aro communities", bc just communities could be too vague

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I’m wondering why we cut out the “is not an appropriate proxy for aro reparations” part? I think it packs in a lot of information about what the essay is trying to say that “misinformation on QPRs hinders conversations about ace and aro community relations” doesn’t include, i.e., that the whole QPR conversation is a poor substitute for the ace community actually addressing aro grievances. It’s more specific than hindering relations. 

 

Like, if we’re fine with using “misinformation” (even though its definition has ‘deliberate deception’ in it [EDIT: in the Google/Cambridge/Collins definition at least, it’s less negative in definitions from other places on the web like Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com], I guess it’s still less negative sounding in general than “revisionism” or “denialism”), Coyote could just replace the instances of “revisionism” with “misinformation” in the essay and revise the title to “QPR Misinformation is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations.” 

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Suggestions on the table now:

  • "Misinformation on QPRs in Aro Circles Hinders Conversations About Real Problems Between Aro and Ace Communities"
  • "Misinformation on QPRs Hinders Conversations About Community Relations"
  • "QPR Misinformation is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations"
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Sidestepping the title suggestions/input thingy somewhat because I'm not overly concerned about it—although, of those suggestions I'd vote for the third one because it seems the most straightforward about what the issue is.

 

But, re: solutions/what to do, I assume the one of the biggest things is to simply correct the misinformation where we see it, but how would one go about doing that with sensitivity to the root cause? Particularly if the one you're correcting is very emotionally invested in it? What about when seeing the misinformation circulating on sites you don't actually have an account on?

 

Would pointing out that QPR terms aren't closed (exclusive to the group/groups/people that coined it) before moving onto the correction help?

 

It also seems like maybe it might be more pertinent to address how we could get to conversations on what we want aro reparations to actually look like (or if it is a thing we want) and how we could get that to happen. I'm not generally active in aro communities/spaces (I lurk occasionally), and don't usually have the energy for sustained community conversations/input in any case, but I would like to see these conversations happen (and assist, where able).

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On 12/21/2019 at 11:14 PM, kernsing said:

I’m wondering why we cut out the “is not an appropriate proxy for aro reparations” part? I think it packs in a lot of information about what the essay is trying to say that “misinformation on QPRs hinders conversations about ace and aro community relations” doesn’t include, i.e., that the whole QPR conversation is a poor substitute for the ace community actually addressing aro grievances. It’s more specific than hindering relations. 

mm yeah I get what you're saying, but 1. phrashing it like that again makes it sound like the misinformation is a deliberate effort of aros, who are trying to get some reparations, 2. I'm not actually calling for any "aro reparations", and what I'd like to see more is conversations on working together with the aces who want to work together, 2a. at the end of the essay coyote also talks about aces who feel unwelcome in aro circles, so the conclusion possibly isn't a simple "aces make this, this and this up to aros and it'll be cool", 3. for personal reasons I dislike the word reparations

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22 hours ago, Coyote said:

"Misinformation on QPRs Hinders Conversations About Community Relations"

I prefer this one, personnaly.

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7 hours ago, bydontost said:

phrashing it like that again makes it sound like the misinformation is a deliberate effort of aros, who are trying to get some reparations,

 

On 12/19/2019 at 3:18 PM, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

this feels very similar, because the thread itself initially lacked acknowledgement of why these things are happening,

 

I've got one person here telling me the title puts too much emphasis on reasons/motivation and I've got another person telling me the thread doesn't put enough emphasis on reasons/motivation. I don't know how to reconcile these two perspectives, so if you two could hash that out together and get back to me, I would love to implement a solution which is satisfactory to the both of you.

 

21 hours ago, guingamor said:

But, re: solutions/what to do, I assume the one of the biggest things is to simply correct the misinformation where we see it, but how would one go about doing that with sensitivity to the root cause? Particularly if the one you're correcting is very emotionally invested in it?

 

If I might tentatively put forth a theory here.... This seems like a situation where many people are highly on guard (on account of a lot of negative past experiences), so based on cases I've seen where just presenting the facts wasn't enough.... I think a big component here that might help, potentially, is if people were corrected by people they already know and trust, especially on aro issues.

 

Also, hi, btw. Welcome to Arocalypse. :icecream:

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On 12/23/2019 at 8:14 PM, Coyote said:
On 12/23/2019 at 1:06 PM, bydontost said:

phrashing it like that again makes it sound like the misinformation is a deliberate effort of aros, who are trying to get some reparations,

 

On 12/19/2019 at 10:18 PM, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

this feels very similar, because the thread itself initially lacked acknowledgement of why these things are happening,

 

I've got one person here telling me the title puts too much emphasis on reasons/motivation and I've got another person telling me the thread doesn't put enough emphasis on reasons/motivation. I don't know how to reconcile these two perspectives, so if you two could hash that out together and get back to me, I would love to implement a solution which is satisfactory to the both of you.

I was talking about the title and alex about the thread itself if i understand correctly?? and to me the title doesn't focus too much on what's the motivation as much as it gets a wrong impression about the motivation across

 

and idk if I wanna get into convincing alex of sth when they have very experiences of being hurt by ace people and I have little experiences with ace people who aren't aro in general. I'm not interested in any "reparations", bc first of all I'm not sure what that'd look like and I think that cooperation would be better for the relationship between the communities in the long run instead of a relationship of a victim and an offender

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On 12/24/2019 at 3:28 PM, bydontost said:

I'm not interested in any "reparations", bc first of all I'm not sure what that'd look like and I think that cooperation would be better for the relationship between the communities in the long run instead of a relationship of a victim and an offender

 

That's a refreshing perspective to hear.

 

In any case, that describes your own investments. How would you describe the investments being expressed in these posts I linked as examples of misinformation? In two or three words, if possible.

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8 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

That's a refreshing perspective to hear.

 

In any case, that describes your own investments. How would you describe the investments being expressed in these posts I linked as examples of misinformation? In two or three words, if possible.

so, the reposted essay has been deleted, with this and this as explanation, so the cause: misinformation, possible intention for posting in the first place: building up aro community with what they thought was aro history

 

im not going to go through every post again and guess as to what the intentions of the people were, and for sure they varied. a general rundown, to me, is that the cause is mostly misinformation (especially about the coiners' actual identities, which are mostly unknown unless you ask them personally) and the intent is mostly wanting to anchor the qprs, which are important in the aro circles (idk how it is in ace ones), in what they perceive as aro history, bc it may seem it really was made by aros. some people also feel they can't use the word if it doesn't "belong" to them, if it wasn't coined in their community (which i think is bs) and wish it did "belong" to them. in short i think it has to do with misinformation, the fact qprs are very important to a lot of aros and wishing to see some aros (meaning people who primarily id'ed as aro) building those important concepts

 

sidenote: what im interested in is aros and aces to be on equal footing, so framing the relationship as "victim and offender" chafes at me the same way "indebted and benefactor" does ("I think that general aro groups owe a very specific debt to ace organizing and communities that needs to be acknowledged.")

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On 12/26/2019 at 7:12 AM, bydontost said:

possible intention for posting in the first place: building up aro community with what they thought was aro history

 

I think that makes a lot of sense. Since I think Coy was asking in order to find a replacement phrase for "aro reparations" in the title, here are a few possibilities for that one:

  • Building Aro Community
  • Aro Community Building
  • Building Aro Community & History (Maybe too long)

Also if this is the ending, I think "proxy" doesn't quite make sense... perhaps a word like "vehicle" would get it across a bit better?

  • QPR Misinformation Is Not an Appropriate Vehicle for Aro Community Building

We could also play around with the sentence order a bit, which could shorten it more, and potentially allow for more detail in the part talking about motivations:

  • Aro Community Building Deserves Better Than QPR Misinformation
  • Building Aro Community & History Deserves Better Than QPR Misinformation
On 12/26/2019 at 7:12 AM, bydontost said:

sidenote: what im interested in is aros and aces to be on equal footing, so framing the relationship as "victim and offender" chafes at me the same way "indebted and benefactor" does ("I think that general aro groups owe a very specific debt to ace organizing and communities that needs to be acknowledged.")

 

I wholeheartedly agree that I'd like the communities to relate to each other as equals, rather than as either of the two framings you mentioned.

 

If we're being super careful in this thread about not taking people's words out-of-context by making sure to acknowledge why people say the things that they say, which it seems we are, I do want to add that the person you're quoting there said that statement in response to having her own identity and community membership erased. Whether or not people find that motivations are more important than the impact such statements have will vary I'm sure. I just encourage everyone to consider the motivations for everyone involved, if that is something that's important to you.

 

I also wonder whether the entire framing of "indebted and benefactor" would even exist if it weren't for misinformation being spread about the origins of the word queerplatonic (or more broadly, attempts to separate aro history from ace history where that would be impossible). One of the benefits of addressing the misinformation in our community is that it would help prevent this kind of framing from happening as a reaction.

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5 hours ago, LauraG said:

QPR Misinformation Is Not an Appropriate Vehicle for Aro Community Building

 

That seems like an alright replacement.

 

On 12/24/2019 at 6:14 AM, Coyote said:

I think a big component here that might help, potentially, is if people were corrected by people they already know and trust, especially on aro issues.

 

That makes sense. Would require some amount of time/consistent effort, if you weren't already established like that or didn't personally know someone who was, though, but then what doesn't.

 

On 12/24/2019 at 6:14 AM, Coyote said:

Also, hi, btw. Welcome to Arocalypse. :icecream:

 

Thanks. :icecream:

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I am really, deeply confused as to why we're spending so much time discussing the semantics of the title of a thread on the Arocalypse forums in order to address issues happening on Tumblr. In all seriousness: what on earth does anyone expect to accomplish in terms of combating the misunderstandings that happen on Tumblr, as highlighted in the OP, by crafting the perfect topic title on these completely separate forums? 

 

On 12/21/2019 at 9:59 AM, kernsing said:

Although, maybe the ace community is a good place to start with aro activism since they’re more likely to be aware of aromanticism existing in the first place. But then that gets into the problem where we want to be separate from and not always tied up with the ace community. Anyone got thoughts on that? 

My thoughts? Bluntly, I have little to nothing in common with "the ace community" as I've experienced it, and based on my experiences it's one of the last places I'd turn to for help with aro activism. I've tried, many times, believe me, to connect with ace communities. But there's only so many times I can see attitudes like "sex eww, romance yay" being paraded around as the community zeitgeist before I nope the hell out. 

 

 

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Update: title changed from "QPR Revisionism is Not An Appropriate Proxy for Aro Reparations" to "QPR Misinformation Is Not an Appropriate Vehicle for Aro Community Building," per feedback that the original phrasing sounded accusatory. 

 

So now that that's changed, would anyone like to address any of the other accusatory language used in this thread?

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On 12/28/2019 at 11:11 PM, Coyote said:

QPR Misinformation Is Not an Appropriate Vehicle for Aro Community Building

 

it's a definitely way better sounding topic than it was

 

On 12/28/2019 at 4:05 AM, eatingcroutons said:

I am really, deeply confused as to why we're spending so much time discussing the semantics of the title of a thread on the Arocalypse forums in order to address issues happening on Tumblr.

 

fair point, anyway if someone wants to make a post to tumblr, here's a draft graphic that could be used https://drive.google.com/open?id=18wNTeK4GF1szk0lVKDTTjttvGr0ht09q

suggestions for some tweaks are okay

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