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bananaslug

The "& Aro's" bandaid

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I'm definitely not the first person on here to bring up this issue, but I haven't seen any discussions specific to it so I thought I would make one here.

 

Yesterday my local ace meet up group changed its name to "Ace's and aro's". The reasoning they gave for this change was essentially "all the other ace groups are doing it". Now I attended this group's meetings a  few years back and I ended up making the active decision to stop going to them because even as an aroace I found that they were so aro exclusionary that I felt uncomfortable being there. This was a consistent issue for them and while their facebook post says that they'll be providing separate aro discussion groups to prevent people from feeling left out, I'm highly dubious of their ability to actually be aro inclusive.

 

This isn't by any means the first ace group to have these issue. In fact it seems like slapping the phrase "& aro's" onto the name of every other asexual meet up group is the hot new trend. The groups doing this have been getting all the same criticism. "You're not actually aro inclusive thought", "this name change is just performative",  "You're only making your group open to aroace's not alloaros." All of these points address very real problems that the ace "and aro" meet up groups seem unwilling to fix.

 

However, what I've found when trying to point out these issues is that these groups tend to have exactly one very engaged aroace group member who's actually trying to implement aro inclusive policy changes while the rest of the community is at best apathetic to the idea of aro inclusion. This makes it hard to openly criticize ace "& aro" meetup groups because the one person who is working towards aro inclusion takes the criticism very personally while the rest of the group is unphased by it. 

 

So here are the questions I have for y'all:

  1. What are some ways that ace groups can effectively change to be aro inclusive?
  2. How do we criticize these groups without putting down the people who are making the effort? 
  3. Do you have in-person experiences with groups making these preformative changes?
  4. Do you think these performative name changes make it harder for aro's to make their own separate communities? 

 

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Man, I have a lot of thoughts on this that I'm not going to get into now because it'd get ranty, but number one answer to your first question? Fucking talk to some alloaros. Actively solicit their opinions and input. Put them in positions of authority within your organisation. Involve them directly in decision-making processes. It feels like it's so blindingly obvious that it shouldn't have to be said, but the perspective of aromanticism as entirely distinct from asexuality is what's missing from all this lip service to aro inclusivity.

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Well here's an issue you'd think would be a no-brainer, and yet I have seen multiple times: "Ace and aro" groups and events need to just. Fucking. STOP USING EXCLUSIVELY ACE IMAGERY. Or like, primarily ace with one (1) tiny little bit of aro symbolism somewhere in there. It's irritating at best, completely exclusionary at worst- if I'm scrolling through something quickly and see big bold ace flags everywhere, are my eyes immediately going to pick out the one little word that's colored green? Or am I going to go "Ah, ace stuff," and ignore it? You can't just visually shove us in the corner and expect aros to feel included. 

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I know the communities are small, but can they just not? if the aces have a defined group that they are comfortable with then why change to '& aro' at all! The one determined person should just work up an aro group separately and let those who don't care about aros or who just want to talk about love and dating without sex have the ace group. If there is enough aros in the local community to support the group then a fair chunk of them are probably not going to be ace and may even be turned off by the connection to ace because of all the toxic lip service going around. 

Changing the name but not the behaviour is probably making it harder for aros everywhere, whether in physical groups or online, to develop their own communities and initiatives. New aros might find the 'ace & aro' communities and then still feel excluded because the discourse is so ace-centric which means they would have to work harder to actually find anything relevent to them. Thank goodness for this place!!! :aropride::aropride:

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@ApatheticEchidna totally agree!

 

Overall I dislike critizising any initiative or group (unless they do something openly hurtful of course)

If one doesn't feel that group is inclusive, start your own group. Instead of just sitting back expecting someone else to do the work.

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12 hours ago, bananaslug said:

Yesterday my local ace meet up group changed its name to "Ace's and aro's". The reasoning they gave for this change was essentially "all the other ace groups are doing it". Now I attended this group's meetings a  few years back and I ended up making the active decision to stop going to them because even as an aroace I found that they were so aro exclusionary that I felt uncomfortable being there. This was a consistent issue for them and while their facebook post says that they'll be providing separate aro discussion groups to prevent people from feeling left out, I'm highly dubious of their ability to actually be aro inclusive.

It does come across more as a fashion statement than anything else.

 

12 hours ago, bananaslug said:

However, what I've found when trying to point out these issues is that these groups tend to have exactly one very engaged aroace group member who's actually trying to implement aro inclusive policy changes while the rest of the community is at best apathetic to the idea of aro inclusion. This makes it hard to openly criticize ace "& aro" meetup groups because the one person who is working towards aro inclusion takes the criticism very personally while the rest of the group is unphased by it. 

Since this individual is aro ace they have a rather limited perspective on aro to start with.
They are also likely to be someone who can tolerate being part of an allo ace organisation. Maybe also who more identifies with ace than aro. Something which certainly isn't the case for all aro aces.


The way I see it there are actually three groups with a somewhat "triangular" relationship.
Aro aces and allo aces have being asexual in common but differ in being perioriented & aromantic vs exclusive varioriented & alloromantic.
Aro aces and aro allos have being aromantic in common but differ in being perioriented & asexaul vs exclusive varioriented & allosexual.
Aro allos and allo aces have being exclusive variorinted in common but differ in aromantic & allosexual vs alloromantic & asexual.
Each of these face different challenges in an amantonormative society.

 

12 hours ago, bananaslug said:

So here are the questions I have for y'all:

  1. What are some ways that ace groups can effectively change to be aro inclusive?
  2. How do we criticize these groups without putting down the people who are making the effort? 
  3. Do you have in-person experiences with groups making these preformative changes?
  4. Do you think these performative name changes make it harder for aro's to make their own separate communities? 

 

1) They should stop and concentrate on being good ace groups.
2) By critiquing their actions (or inactions).
3) No.
4) Yes. Because the assumption will be that aro (and aro ace) communities, meetups and events are redundant.

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12 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

Man, I have a lot of thoughts on this that I'm not going to get into now because it'd get ranty, but number one answer to your first question? Fucking talk to some alloaros. Actively solicit their opinions and input. Put them in positions of authority within your organisation. Involve them directly in decision-making processes. It feels like it's so blindingly obvious that it shouldn't have to be said, but the perspective of aromanticism as entirely distinct from asexuality is what's missing from all this lip service to aro inclusivity.

The organisation Aces & Aros even admits to aro underrepresentation On a web page which promotes their "Understanding Asexuality and Aromanticism" course. With the course material itself being rather a mess.

 

8 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

Well here's an issue you'd think would be a no-brainer, and yet I have seen multiple times: "Ace and aro" groups and events need to just. Fucking. STOP USING EXCLUSIVELY ACE IMAGERY. Or like, primarily ace with one (1) tiny little bit of aro symbolism somewhere in there. It's irritating at best, completely exclusionary at worst- if I'm scrolling through something quickly and see big bold ace flags everywhere, are my eyes immediately going to pick out the one little word that's colored green? Or am I going to go "Ah, ace stuff," and ignore it? You can't just visually shove us in the corner and expect aros to feel included. 

Even if there is some aro content it's virtually always from an aro ace POV.
Possibly with "Not all aros are also ace" footnote added like "May contain nuts"...

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On 2/28/2019 at 5:42 AM, Apathetic Echidna said:

I know the communities are small, but can they just not? if the aces have a defined group that they are comfortable with then why change to '& aro' at all!

To be honest I think this is the view I'm coming around to, and what I didn't want to start ranting about earlier. I'm not ace, and I don't want to be part of the ace community. I want to be part of aro communities, by and for aro people, not afterthoughts tacked onto a community I have no interest in or connection to.

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6 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

I'm not ace, and I don't want to be part of the ace community. I want to be part of aro communities, by and for aro people, not afterthoughts tacked onto a community I have no interest in or connection to.

I definitely understand that. Aro is definitely my main identity even though I could probably define myself as a sex-neutral asexual for the past 6 years. And really, aroaces can easily participate in two separate groups if they have the desire to.

On a connected note, the reason why I am most active here is because I have found in many other places sexual repulsion is much more respected than romance repulsion. Sexual content in a post needs a warning, and if anyone is uncomfortable with talking about sex the conversations are generally changed or shut down, while relationship blather is not regarded as needing warnings, is regarded as a generally acceptable topic of conversation and in a few cases the person who had a problem with relationship talk derailing a conversation were told to 'suck it up'. 

I am starting to get some seriously annoyed feels about this stuff....

hey @bananaslug can I use your brilliant topic title for some art?

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9 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

And really, aroaces can easily participate in two separate groups if they have the desire to.

 

Hmm, so I know a lot of other folks on this thread have expressed similar thoughts to this, but I feel like this is the most succinct statement I've seen on it so I want to reply to it. 

 

Because I've seen this as kind of the implication of everyone saying ace's and aro's should have totally separate groups and I don't think that's fair or functional. It's true that aro's here on apocalypse tend to have a bias towards their aro identities, but the reality of it is that a lot of aroace's feel forced into the SAM anyways and insisting on separate groups would only amplify that.

 

And actually, a lot of people don't have the time or resources to attend two different groups. Gas and bus money is expensive and not everyone can afford to go to more than one community event in a month.  If people have kids than getting a babysitter twice as many times is super expensive. If a differently abled person needs someone to go out with them they can have trouble arranging more days for a caretaker to be with them. Etc, etc, etc. I could list for hours. Asking aroaces to split their community in two can create a tremendous drain on peoples resources depending on their situation and would frequently result in people having to choose between their two identities.

 

This isn't to say there shouldn't be separate aro and ace groups, y'all all bring up a lot of good points and it's clear that separate aro groups are a needed thing, but I think what we actually need are sperate ace, aro, and aroace spaces so that no group has to bear a larger burden of exclusion or resources than the rest. However, all of these communities are quite small, to begin with so splitting things up like this could cause a lot of difficulties when it comes to actual community organizing. I don't have a solution for that, but I can say for sure that only having split aro and ace groups is an idea that has its own set of issues.

 

And also yes, you're welcome to use that title as part of an art piece!  

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@bananaslug Personally I think the main issue towards splitting the groups would be the small number of participants, but then in larger population centres the splitting might actually boost participation in aro specific groups. 

There are many ways to deal with time restrictions and limitations. I have been part of several groups and societies (a variety of interests and other stuff) that would have certain meetings that were split, mostly it was one meeting followed by another and only about 20% of the people would stay for both. It would be the yearly dinner event or AGM that would be put on different days (generally they would be in completely different months).

I don't know how casual or structured most ace meetings are (the only one I heard of in my city was a 30 minute meet and greet that wasn't repeated) but simply having a separate agenda that comes into effect at a regular time can delineate an aro-centric meeting, the last 15-20 minutes of the meeting or every 3rd meeting or the first meeting of the months that don't end in a Y. Whatever it is though it should be recognised as separate because mostly they do deal with different issues and aroaces feel the overlap, but certainly some aroaces feel ace issues more acutely than aro issues as well as the other way around.

Having separated times (however it is decided to separate them) allows distinct issues to be aired without people being drowned out by dominant voices with an agenda.....basically for exactly the reasons you stated in your original post. 

On 2/28/2019 at 9:53 AM, bananaslug said:

ended up making the active decision to stop going to them because even as an aroace I found that they were so aro exclusionary that I felt uncomfortable being there.

I'm thinking that needing separate days and meeting places for the two types of meetings would only be needed if the local ace group is so aro hostile that it gets disruptive.....or if the communities are so huge that having many various meetings makes sense so people can go to meetings with small group numbers so they can actively participate within the meeting time.

 

Thanks, I'll probably end up making doodles but it is definitely best to ask first :)

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23 hours ago, eatingcroutons said:

'm not ace, and I don't want to be part of the ace community. I want to be part of aro communities, by and for aro people, not afterthoughts tacked onto a community I have no interest in or connection to.

I'm also not ace. Additionally the majority of the ace community is made up of alloromantics. From my POV the sexual orientation of alloromantics matters little..
I actually want to be part of an aro community which dosn't tend to assume asexuality as a default. I'd also like to see better descriptions of the term "aromantic" than this from AVEN. Since I see the likes of "aromantics are often satisfied with friendships" and "more than friends" as supportive of the "relationship hierarchy" implicit in amantonormativity. (You wouldn't find allo aces described as "satisfied with romantic relationships without sex".) Additionally there's conflation of romantic coded behaviours with romantic feelings.
 

17 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

On a connected note, the reason why I am most active here is because I have found in many other places sexual repulsion is much more respected than romance repulsion. Sexual content in a post needs a warning, and if anyone is uncomfortable with talking about sex the conversations are generally changed or shut down, while relationship blather is not regarded as needing warnings, is regarded as a generally acceptable topic of conversation and in a few cases the person who had a problem with relationship talk derailing a conversation were told to 'suck it up'.

Another way in which this shows up is there's no concept of "age of consent" or "rating" when it comes to romance. It's perfectly acceptable to put any amount of romance in a book or movie aimed at children.
Similarly sex is often seen as "private" whereas romance is "public". 
It can also be socially unaceptable not be interested in and enthusiastic about romantic relationships. Even indifference can cause problems for an aro. That's without showing interest in non romantic relationships (especially those which are also sexual.)

 

8 hours ago, bananaslug said:

Because I've seen this as kind of the implication of everyone saying ace's and aro's should have totally separate groups and I don't think that's fair or functional. It's true that aro's here on apocalypse tend to have a bias towards their aro identities, but the reality of it is that a lot of aroace's feel forced into the SAM anyways and insisting on separate groups would only amplify that.

I agree that the split attraction model may not be that useful for aro aces, along with other perioriented people.
However it is very important to the exclusive varioriented: allosexual aromantics, asexual alloromantics, heteroromantic homosexuals and homoromantic heterosexuals. As well as being of use to variorinted people who's sexual and romantic orientations 'overlap'.

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On 2/28/2019 at 12:42 AM, Apathetic Echidna said:

The one determined person should just work up an aro group separately and let those who don't care about aros or who just want to talk about love and dating without sex have the ace group.

Uh, you do realize that organizations take a lot of energy and effort to do right? And that just having one person doing everything isn't feasible? 

And...are you saying that only alloromantic aces should access to ace spaces??? And that ace spaces only exist to serve the needs of alloromantic aces???? What are aroaces supposed to do? And asexuals who don't have a romantic orientation?

 

On 2/28/2019 at 7:18 AM, Mark said:

The way I see it there are actually three groups with a somewhat "triangular" relationship.
Aro aces and allo aces have being asexual in common but differ in being perioriented & aromantic vs exclusive varioriented & alloromantic.
Aro aces and aro allos have being aromantic in common but differ in being perioriented & asexaul vs exclusive varioriented & allosexual.
Aro allos and allo aces have being exclusive variorinted in common but differ in aromantic & allosexual vs alloromantic & asexual.
Each of these face different challenges in an amantonormative society.

...I mean I identify primarily as aro and nothing else so I'm not exactly sure where I'm supposed to fit into this model...and what about other a-specs who don't use the split-attraction model? Or don't feel the need to state more than one orientation? Or identify as some gray-term like quioromantic or lithosexual or demiromantic etc.?

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@assignedgothatbirth I am wondering if you actually read my posts of just reacted to the first one? I'll answer all your questions

Uh, you do realize that organizations take a lot of energy and effort to do right?

Ultimately it does not have to be a completely separate group or meeting unless the current culture is toxic to accepting new aros to the group (which is what some of us in this thread are saying is happening). If '& aros' is going to be included in the group name there should be a delineation for an aro focused time so that aro-spec who might not normally participate can have a chance. I outlined some options (and problems) here

 

And that just having one person doing everything isn't feasible?

I believe the ace meet up in my city was organised by one (already busy) person. I guess it has a lot to do with how structured you feel it needs to be and the resources available. If creating a completely separate meeting, at least initially there would presumably be small number of participants, and help can always be recruited from the group. The 'one person' I was referencing was this

On 2/28/2019 at 9:53 AM, bananaslug said:

This makes it hard to openly criticize ace "& aro" meetup groups because the one person who is working towards aro inclusion takes the criticism very personally while the rest of the group is unphased by it. 

 In this case the 'one person' should realise that extra aro inclusion is being met with at best apathy or at worst silent hostility and should try to focus their energy to carving a separate space that can allow uninterested aces the opportunity to not participate (see my link from first question)

 

And...are you saying that only alloromantic aces should access to ace spaces??? And that ace spaces only exist to serve the needs of alloromantic aces????

No. Discussions are based on interests and repulsions not orientations. I think the community situation at the moment can be summed up as

Quote

Aromantic communities are for Aro-spectrum/Ace-spectrum who are more repelled by romance

Asexual communities are for Aro-spectrum/Ace-spectrum who are more repelled by sex

(more information here)

I would have been better to phrase my comment as "who just want to talk and listen about love and dating without sex have the ace group." There are plenty of aroaces here who are not on another forum because of the prevalence of romantic relationship chatter. It would suck to set aside time to go to a meeting then spend at least some of that time outside while the discussion ranges into something that you are repulsed by (that works for everyone by the way) so having separation and maybe even having pre-meeting warnings if there is a meeting agenda that would allow people to plan accordingly. 

 

What are aroaces supposed to do? And asexuals who don't have a romantic orientation?

Keep going to meeting if they feel comfortable doing so. It is really alloaros who are feeling this 'supposed' inclusion as the biggest insult though there are many others of varying orientations who are angry of the token inclusion of labels and see it as further erasure. Some of the issues around that topic are here. Maybe the groups should be more honest, unless they really are pushing to include alloaros, and rename the groups 'ace & aroace'.  

 

Just so you know, I don't assume orientation labels so whenever you see me using a / it means and/or. And if @Mark's model doesn't work for you then don't apply it to yourself, but his model is the only one I have seen that comprehensively covers the twisted issues associated with amatonormativity and social expectations associated with the components of the relationship escalator. It can be understood as a framework to understand issues on a community scale rather than a model that you have to fit yourself into. 

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13 hours ago, assignedgothatbirth said:

...I mean I identify primarily as aro and nothing else so I'm not exactly sure where I'm supposed to fit into this model...and what about other a-specs who don't use the split-attraction model? Or don't feel the need to state more than one orientation? Or identify as some gray-term like quioromantic or lithosexual or demiromantic etc.?

A possibility would be as non-SAM using aspec. Which, as I've previously pointed out, may also apply to many 'aro ace' people.
How do issues concerning amantonormativity, sex repulsion, roamance repulsion (along monogamy repulsion), how you ideally wish to relate to others, etc. apply to you?

 

9 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

And...are you saying that only alloromantic aces should access to ace spaces??? And that ace spaces only exist to serve the needs of alloromantic aces????
No. Discussions are based on interests and repulsions not orientations. I think the community situation at the moment can be summed up as

Quote

Aromantic communities are for Aro-spectrum/Ace-spectrum who are more repelled by romance

Asexual communities are for Aro-spectrum/Ace-spectrum who are more repelled by sex

 

Which I think creates several issues for people who experience both. Having to pick which they are more repelled by, which may not be a meaningful concept to everyone repelled by both.. Along with romance repulsion possibly having a different character depending on if the person in question also experiences sex repulsion or not. Ditto for sex repulsion.

 

9 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

I would have been better to phrase my comment as "who just want to talk and listen about love and dating without sex have the ace group."

I also wonder about "who just want to talk and listen about love and dating without romance have the aro group."
Whilst accepting that it's going to be something which isn't going to work for, even bewilder, aro ace folk.
 

9 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

There are plenty of aroaces here who are not on another forum because of the prevalence of romantic relationship chatter. It would suck to set aside time to go to a meeting then spend at least some of that time outside while the discussion ranges into something that you are repulsed by (that works for everyone by the way) so having separation and maybe even having pre-meeting warnings if there is a meeting agenda that would allow people to plan accordingly. 

Something which might be useful would to apply content/trigger warnings and consent culture to "romantic relationship chatter" in aspec environments. 
 

9 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

t is really alloaros who are feeling this 'supposed' inclusion as the biggest insult though there are many others of varying orientations who are angry of the token inclusion of labels and see it as further erasure. Some of the issues around that topic are here. Maybe the groups should be more honest, unless they really are pushing to include alloaros, and rename the groups 'ace & aroace'.

If you look up just about anything to do with aromanticism the typical narrative you will find is aro ace. Giving the impression that aromanticism is a subset of asexuality. Mentioning that aro allos even exist being as a footnote. Quite a few parts of the "aromantic community" can feel like they are really aro ace. With Arocalypse being one of the few places which is more inclusive.

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10 minutes ago, Mark said:

 

9 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

And...are you saying that only alloromantic aces should access to ace spaces??? And that ace spaces only exist to serve the needs of alloromantic aces????
No. Discussions are based on interests and repulsions not orientations. I think the community situation at the moment can be summed up as

Quote

Aromantic communities are for Aro-spectrum/Ace-spectrum who are more repelled by romance

Asexual communities are for Aro-spectrum/Ace-spectrum who are more repelled by sex

 

Which I think creates several issues for people who experience both. Having to pick which they are more repelled by, which may not be a meaningful concept to everyone repelled by both.. Along with romance repulsion possibly having a different character depending on the person in question also experiences sex repulsion or not. Ditto for sex repulsion.

(ooh, triple quote worked.) I was just summing up how the communities seem to be splitting at the moment, gaps and all. Certainly there are problematic areas and people feeling left out that is why there is quite a bit of hostility in and around some of these issues.

The fundamental point is that ace groups already exist, are already have meetings being attended. The content of meetings would vary according to the people who go, but obviously it is working for the people who continue to attend wherever they are on the aromantic or asexual umbrellas. If aro-spec people are not increasing their interactivity with these renamed groups because the content or attitudes continue as before the name change then it truly was a bandaid that is now causing more problems i.e. further isolating those they purport to be including.

Even in an ideal group situation of the perfect ace & aro meeting there will be those who feel isolated from the content (because there is such a range of issues people face), but that is where warnings and consent culture would really help.  

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On 2/28/2019 at 12:23 AM, bananaslug said:
  • What are some ways that ace groups can effectively change to be aro inclusive?
  • How do we criticize these groups without putting down the people who are making the effort? 
  • Do you have in-person experiences with groups making these preformative changes?
  • Do you think these performative name changes make it harder for aro's to make their own separate communities? 

1) Talking about the split attraction model in a different way. For now what they say look like "we are normal we fall in love", and sometomes worst "our love is pure, not perverted by disgusting sex". I'm not saying they should not talk about romance or sex repulsion, but in a more neutral way so we don't feel like monsters. In particular for aro allo : the split attraction is something they should discussion without feeling attacked. 

 

2) By saying things nicely? I don't know. Or by pointing out the person that makes us feel unconfortable instead of the person who is aro inclusive and try to do her best.

 

3) I'm not really into this irl, I just go on forum. I doubt there is one where I live anyway.

 

4) I think it makes it harder. First because aro and ace are two different things and mixing it can leader to conclusion. Second because it feel like a "pièce rapportée" as we say in French : something that we add after but is not really in its place. It makes me think of the Schuylers sisters in Hamilton, we are the little "and Peggy" of the LGBT community. (Tell me I'm not the only one with the reference please)

 

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As a aro ace community organiser who is more aro than ace, this has given me lots of food for thought. I was thinking to have specifically aro-focussed events as a way to be more inclusive, and our book club has a mix of books with romantic ace(spectrum), aromantic ace(spectrum), and allo-aro(spectrum) characters assigned.

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