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El011

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Posts posted by El011

  1. 8 hours ago, Momo said:

    I am white. I am privileged because I am white, if I argued otherwise I think most people on this forum would have words. I am also autistic, trans, aro, and ace. I am discriminated against for all four. Just because you have some privilege does not mean that you also do not experience discrimination, oppression or stigmatisation and there is no dissonance in that statement.

    And related to your question, yes they do. But they do experience arophobia and acephobia respectively, things I have personally witnessed and the gay people have some measure of privilege for not experiencing that. Which does nothing to diminish the very real problems any of those three hypothetical people face.

    Like I said originally, this whole concept isn't meant to be used as a measuring stick. It's a way to acknowledge issues and needs that various groups face and how they may inter-relate and connect to each other.

    Do you think it's ok for transphobes, gay or otherwise, who dislike being called cisgender to shout down that word? It's literally the same situation. No one is asking people to self-id as alloromantic or allosexual, but the words are still useful for us to talk about people who aren't us and taking away vocabulary is a form of harassment and has been a common tactic for silencing people, as has already been mentioned.

    Gender, sexuality, and disability are different things. But how can you be oppressed for the exact same thing you're privileged for? Even in the case of cis women or non-cis men, one axis of privilege and oppression is trans status and the other is alignment under patriarchy so it's not the same thing.

    As a gray aro, I am stigmatized for my ability to romantically love people of my same gender as well as for how rarely I experience romantic attraction. I'm also targeted for my sexual attraction, which I'm not privileged for. You're invalidating my experiences, posting bigoted propaganda, and being homophobic.

    But only two of those things, my romantic and sexual attraction not my gray romanticism, will ever lead people on their own to fire me from a job, deny me housing, assume that I'm an abusive parent, assume that I'm a sexual predator, physically beat me, rape me, stalk me, or try to coerce me into conversion therapy.

    And when I AM stigmatized for being aro, it's almost always because of misogyny and homophobia. Straight cis aro men aren't targeted by vitriol against casual sex and not wanting a relationship to anywhere near the same degree I, a gray aro socially perceived as a bi woman, am. If misogyny and homophobia didn't exist, neither would arophobia, but obviously not all aros are oppressed under misogyny or homophobia. I'm not being targeted for being aro and you're abusing mod power and invalidating me by saying I am or that I have privilege over you for being bi.

    Gay people don't have privilege regarding acephobia or arophobia. They are oppressed for experiencing attraction, they aren't a ruling class when it comes to sexuality, and what you're saying is homophobic. You're breaking the rules of the forum. How does a group that has been targeted systematically with state sanctioned genocide have privilege?

    Being called cis is not a problem because no one is oppressed for being cis. They can be oppressed for being a woman but that's, again, about alignment under patriarchy not about trans status. This is such a huge false equivalence.

  2. 3 hours ago, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

    I agree with everything the others have said. Plus, "allo is a bad term because it lumps people in with their oppressors" is a CLASSIC aphobic talking point that has been used to silence us.

    Can't it also be argued that saying this is a homophobic talking point used to silence gay and bi people who have a problem with the word?

    5 hours ago, Momo said:

    There is nothing wrong with the terms allosexual nor alloromantic for all the same reasons that there is nothing wrong with cisgender, perisex, allistic, etc, etc. if you have an issue with the way people use these words then by all means criticise them. But different terminology doesn’t fix those problems. 

    This list of issues is so contradictory as to be laughable. You say that aros are stigmatised then say that allos don’t have any privileges by virtue of being allo. You can’t have it both ways. Having privilege doesn’t mean you aren’t oppressed or stigmatised. Those are not mutually exclusive. But this isn’t a race to the bottom to find out who is worst off. It’s about acknowledging that different groups of people have different issues and needs.

    Being stigmatized isn't the same thing as being oppressed and this isn't contradictory at all. In order for one group to be oppressed, there has to be a ruling class that can and does benefit from that oppression and in the case of aphobia, there's not. Gay and bi people are not a ruling class in terms of sexuality.

    I'm sensing some cognitive dissonance here. You say that having privilege doesn't mean you're not also stigmatized but don't seem to apply this to aros. Don't cis het aros and cis aroaces have privilege related to sexuality by virtue of not experiencing homophobia?

  3. I'm not gray ace but I assume gray aro experiences would translate pretty well into gray ace ones so maybe this will help. Just take my answers and replace aro with ace.

    On 12/6/2020 at 4:35 AM, nonmerci said:

    1) Is it common for grey people to be sex repulsed? I was wondering if this was possible as my character can sometimes feel sexual attraction though not in an intense way, so it could change how he feels about change I guess.

    It varies a lot. We're probably less likely to be repulsed than full aro people because we still feel romantic attraction, and I don't talk to a ton of other gray aros so I wouldn't know their thoughts on it. But personally I don't really use the repulsed/favorable/indifferent terminology because I don't feel like it works very well with my experiences. Sometimes I'm romance favorable, sometimes I'm indifferent, sometimes I'm repulsed.

    On 12/6/2020 at 4:35 AM, nonmerci said:

    2) Does sexual repulsion can fluctuate the same way sexual attraction  fluctuate?

    It's gonna be different for everyone but for me it does. Not necessarily consistently with my romantic attraction, like I haven't had a crush in a few years but i still get random days when i think a romantic relationship sounds amazing even though there's no one I'd actually want to do it with right now or in the immediate future.

    On 12/6/2020 at 4:35 AM, nonmerci said:

    3) For what I read, for some aceflux sexual attraction can be something one day and another the next day. Now for my character, the fluctuation takes more time, like period that can last during week.  Is it consistent?

    I've gotta be honest, I think some people just make very overblown assumptions of how non aros/aces experience attraction. Like I've seen "allosexual" defined as "you regularly feel strong sexual attraction to people you don't know" and that's ridiculous, nobody just wants to bone five strangers a day unless there's a health issue going on. Nobody feels attraction 24/7 the exact same every day esp considering there are so many different factors that can affect one's attraction. Sometimes, even for people who are fully alloromantic allosexual, there are days when they're just not particularly feeling attraction and that's totally normal. And this description...just sounds like a typical allosexual person to me.

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  4. Nonbinary people don't have to be totally neutral and plenty of us lean more to one side of the binary. We also all present differently and use different pronouns so there are many different nonbinary experiences. You can absolutely identify as nonbinary if you want but you don't have to. I've even seen people identifying as both nonbinary and cis.

  5. On 10/21/2020 at 4:38 PM, hunt said:

    Im attracted to everyone, except as my sexuality suggests, I'm only attracted to feminine and androgynous presenting people, with no attraction to masculine presenting people.

    That's still attraction to all genders. You can still id as bisexual. If not that does queer work? Or sapphic if you're woman aligned?

  6. My fellow grays (sexual or romantic), why do you identify the way you do?

    I'm gray-aro and a non-ace bisexual. I identify as gray aro because, so far, I have only experienced romantic attraction to two people that I'm aware of.

    If you go back to the beginning of the adolescent stage, so around 10, that means I only get crushes about once every six years. I dated and had sex with a few people casually from 20-21 years old, which was fun, but before that I preferred to prioritize other things. I got in my first romantic relationship when I was almost 22.

    I do like dating and doing romantically coded things. But I don't normally like the idea of being in a romantic relationship and am generally indifferent to romance on a personal level and when I was actually in a romantic relationship the romantic aspect of it stressed me out at times. I also have a hard time figuring out when I am feeling romantic attraction. I do like the idea of romance, though, and I feel like I have the potential to be in a romantic relationship and enjoy it.

    What about other grays? Why do you identify as gray-ace? Why do you identify as gray-aro?

  7. What's your opinion on the term allo? Why do you feel that way?

    I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand I don't like it because it's so frequently used in homophobic or otherwise oppressive and immoral ways to say that non-aro or non-ace people are inherently privileged and that allosexism and allonormativity are real things, to make invasive assumptions about other people's attraction, and to group gay and bi people with straight people on the basis of sexuality. It's also forcibly applied to people who aren't comfortable with it.

     

    On the other, I feel like it wouldn't be a bad term if it were used:

    -to encompass gray-ace and gray-aro people while also acknowledging our place in the aro and ace communities.

    -as a neutral descriptor that doesn't denote privilege, that acknowledges the stigma and oppression even many straight people experience related to their attraction and sexual/romantic lives (ie reproductive rights for women, criminalization of sex work, eugenics, nonconsensual surgeries on intersex people, trans people experiencing violence for having sex, racist stereotypes about people of color's sexuality, etc.)

    -in a way that doesn't imply wlw/mlm attraction is privileged and acknowledges the privilege that comes with not being attracted to one's same and similar genders.

    -in a way that doesn't push an "us vs. them" mentality that I see often in the ace and aro communities

    -in a way that doesn't pretend asexuality or aromanticism are oppressed identities (stigmatized yes, oppressed no)

    -in a way that doesn't pretend asexuality and aromanticism are part of the lgbt community

    -in a way that doesn't shame or alienate people for having sex or romantic feelings

  8. I have a date tomorrow and we're getting coffee at Starbucks. I like casual dating with sexual partners but it can get stressful af for me when the romance kicks in for them bc I don't feel anything, so I'm very upfront about the fact that I generally don't want anything romantic. I like doing romantic things but not for romantic reasons.

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  9. I want to revive this thread. I'm androgynous or fluid in my gender expression, i think of myself as both masculine and feminine, and I think my bisexuality and some other experiences of mine influence that very heavily but not really my aromanticism. My gender is fluid, I think female aligned genderfluid ambonec is probably most accurate. 

    I might feel a little more inclined to look stereotypically gay and gnc since I have so little romantic interest in men and when I am interested in men I generally prefer gnc bi men. I think if I were cis and more interested in men that might change though.

  10. For me it's not so much what we're doing as why we're doing it. I like kissing as a part of sex but generally not for romantic reasons. I think you can and should do things like get chocolates and flowers for your friends and celebrate Valentine's day together. I think you can go on dates without romance being involved, plenty of people date casually just for fun or because they want sex. But for me it doesn't (usually) come with romantic feelings and it can make me uncomfortable if someone does those things to try to be romantic with me or saw them as romantic, rather than seeing it as a friend thing like I do.

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  11. 16 minutes ago, nonmerci said:

    I think @Queasy_Attention was talking about the books. And indeed, there can be sometimes romantic connotation in some bookds for young children, but the romance becomes more important when the books are adressed to teens.

     

    I think this logic is flawed because, in that sense, what is the purpose of the word aromantic too? If we can't read minds, how can we know that alloromantic does feel romantic attraction and not just pretend? And on the other hand, that aromantic people don't feel it and are not just pretending because they are single (or not even single, some can be in couples too for their own reasons).

    I think we can all see that a norm exists. Feeling attraction when we see a pretty person, being excited by certain things... We can see the norm everywhere and allo people don't seem to say it is false. And if someone tells me that they experience attraction like, once in a week, or once in a month, I can see that this person is not in the norm.

    Does there need to be a purpose? If it feels personally useful to you, is accurate, and isn't hurting anyone then why should there be?

    The way that I personally gauge romantic attraction is basically robert sternberg's definition, passionate feelings (limerence) plus liking them as a person and wanting emotional intimacy with them. I think the defining feature of romantic attraction is limerence, and I like this definition since it's founded in science and not a few people's unfounded assumptions of what everyone else is feeling.

    What I don't like is the assumption that you must feel a certain amount, strength, or frequency of romantic attraction, or you're automatically arospec even if you have no desire to identify that way. Most non-aro people aren't falling madly in love with a new person every week or even every month and don't want to constantly be in a relationship, and the ones that do feel that way should probably get therapy because it sounds like attachment or abandonment issues.

    I know non-aro people who didn't start dating until college or who prefer to take it slow or who only want to start dating when they meet someone they can see themselves marrying or who choose to prioritize other things over relationships or who didn't get crushes until they were older. I also think that someone could relate almost exactly to a gray-aro or gray-ace and not identify as one, just because we find that identity useful and they don't.

  12. I've taken this test a few times and it has said I'm anywhere from 40-80% aromantic, it's usually about 50% fully aro, give or take up to 20%, and about 10-30% demiromantic and sometimes like 10% aroace and the rest is romantic asexual or non-acomm. I identify as gray-aromantic bisexual and I answer the questions based on my thoughts and desires that particular day and what I can picture myself doing.

    Apparently on average people get like 65% arospec and 25% fully aromantic but I think those numbers are a little skewed because like...most people aren't gonna take an aromantic test unless they're questioning if they're aro, plus the link gets passed around a lot on aro and ace themed sites/blogs/etc.

  13. Just now, Queasy_Attention said:

    Well the "norm" is being 100% allo. I'd say that If you don't experience sexual attraction or romantic attraction in the same way that most people are expected to (aka "normally", aka completely), then you are different from that normal and therefore belong in a different category: namely, under the asexual or aromantic umbrellas.

    What is 100% allo? And how are most people expected to feel that way?

  14. 12 hours ago, cyancat said:

    (perhaps not, but there’s definitely the idea of the normative.)

    How do we know, though? We can't read minds, we don't know how other people feel and can't assume they fit into a certain box just because they don't share our identity. And some things associated with aromanticism are slowly becoming more socially acceptable, like preferring friends with benefits or not wanting to get married or wanting to prioritize other things over romance. Wanting or feeling those things doesn't automatically make you aro.

    And what about people who don't use the split attraction model? Just like there are non sam aros, there could be someone who fits the definition of aro but doesn't use that label and prefer to just identify as bisexual or gay or straight or asexual with no romantic orientation.

  15. 4 minutes ago, cyancat said:

    do think there is a great deal of exclusionary thought going into that though. these labels serve best in finding people who are similar to us. maybe you do occasionally experience romantic feelings. to say that makes you allo though, that because you experience romantic attraction once or twice is enough cause to make you allo, ignores the fact that you don’t experience romantic attraction by the same norm that others do. but you don’t have to identify as aro-spec, even if you fit it definitionally. that’s not the point. the point is that you can choose to identify as aro-spec and find a community of people who have more similar experiences than the mainstream.

    there is no "norm" by which every single person or even most people experience romantic attraction.

  16. imo it's not good to shut down literally any questioning of anything someone aro or ace does or says as "aphobic" or "exclusionist." People pointing out that we're not perfect and infallible are not oppressive to us, and if we act like they are we just come across as kinda cultlike tbh. shutting out outsiders and painting them as hostile, yk?

    now, as a questioning arospec who does feel romantic attraction, i think whoever said this definitely has a point. there's no solid boundary for who is or is not arospec, and therefore someone could feel romantic attraction exactly like i do but choose not to identify as aro. and if we say otherwise, we're invalidating them, which is against the rules of this site.

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