treepod

So maybe it’s safe to say that QPRs *can have elements that overlap with friendship, and even elements that look like romance, but at its core it is something else because it fulfills a different need/role, whatever that may be?

Can we say that wanting/having a QPR is like wanting/having kids? People shouldn’t be judged for not wanting kids or treated like they’re missing some essential human instinct to be a parent. It’s just a lifestyle choice, and does not reflect any poor character or incompleteness. Although perhaps it’s incorrect to say not wanting a QPR is a choice? Idk. It was just a thought Some really good stuff has been said all around here, and I agree that the focus on trying to prove that “aros love too!” is reductive and unhelpful. I find myself getting a little frustrated that the definition of a QPR seems to be such a slippery fish. I guess that’s because it’s a little different every time depending on who’s involved, but... we need to be able to describe it in general in a way that doesn’t make it seem like a stand-in for a romantic relationship. I even like the idea of a QPR for myself, but the notion that it takes the place of a romantic relationship is still very off-putting to me. The whole point is that it’s incomparable, really. I’m tempted to simply say that a QPR is a relationship that is “something else” ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean yeah. My point was that the general public isn’t very aware of aromanticism as a thing that can be separate from being asexual and that can be a little annoying sometimes. I never meant to say that someone has to use the split attraction model. This is coming from someone who used to use asexual as a blanket term for my own aromanticism as well, so I know what that’s like.

Ahhh. Yeah that about describes my scope of understanding/comfort level with those relationships too. The last one I remember did baffle me a lot and it did feel obligatory. But it’s a comedy so maybe it was meant to be sort of a gag pair. Usually when it’s minor characters I just tolerate/ignore it. I’m glad personally that they didn’t feel the need to define Crowley and Aziraphale’s relationship at least, embracing that it’s unconventional instead of trying to “tie up loose ends” EDIT: I just found this and I’m living for it: basically it sounds like Neil is saying that because they’re beings not of this world, anything is possible, and thus he prefers to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination. Their love for one another could be interpreted as being on a different level apart from the friendship-romance dichotomy. Neat!

Are you referring to the story itself or the fandom?

True that! I guess when I said people should be able to enjoy *whatever*... there are some limits. What you say about different fan sites makes a lot of since. The wild thing I discovered about Good Omens is that shipping overwhelms everything everywhere. I’m sure there’s other stuff out there from more mature people but of course the really avid ones drown them out and it overwhelms me a lot. I think I may have found one podcast that looks like it will be all or mostly free of it. Yeah I had a feeling that was a case. It seems that general lexicon isn’t usually aware of the split attraction model, so since the words people are already familiar with are terms like bisexual, asexual looks like the corresponding term for somebody who’s interested in nobody (as in one or the other, both/all, or neither/none, where asexual = neither/none). It looks from the outside like a complete system. Also people have a hard time imagining what a relationship without a sexual element would be like, so that’s probably part of it. Yeah this here is really a great opportunity to educate pop culture en masse because this show is so beloved. If they pass it up I’ll be crushed. Not to mention how insulting it is when someone “gives in” to a romantic relationship. Like Jughead would have basically been cut and paste easy representation if they’d let it. But instead they made a self-indulgent social-outcast-meets-popular-kid trope that no one needs any more of. Our identities get boiled down to social ineptitude and coming of age sexual awakening narratives and it drives me up the wall. “The end of their relationship, not the beginning” yes! QPRs are pretty ambiguous as a term and don’t have a lot of good examples in fiction, so I was actually really grateful for the way the main characters in Good Omens displayed intimacy on an emotional level while remaining at somewhat of a distance. But when fandom turns this into a juicy will-they-won’t-they thing, it occurs to me that to most people this stuff is just like foreplay to the main event. But to me, them “getting together” would spell the end for the dynamic I loved so much. It can be extra frustrating when writers feel the need to give a character an obligatory “happy ending”/wife+kids because that’s what’s expected. It’s like they don’t know how to finish the job when it comes to creating a character with an unconventional lifestyle. Still I’m glad you can enjoy Doc’s character regardless. I totally see why he’s appealing and how he’s one of those special ones to keep with you for a long time. Ultimately it’s better to focus on what mattered to you about him in the first place.

Anyone else get really disappointed when a character you related to as possibly aro turns out not to be, or fandom for the character ships them relentlessly? It's nobody's fault really (people deserve to write about and imagine whatever makes them happy), but it still makes me sad and lonely in my little aro corner. I have a few examples. My first (and probably most traumatic) encounter with this was when I was in high school, my best friend recommended the book Graceling to me. It was a great book, from what I remember, and I really enjoyed the magic system. And at first, I was so ecstatic about the main character's distain for the guy who kept flirting with her. She seemed decidedly repulsed and offended, and was determined that she didn't need or want a relationship. But when she slowly fell in love with him and especially when they had sex, I was so mortified. I felt deeply betrayed by this character, who I'd been totally rooting for as an independent badass. But I didn't have the heart to tell my friend that it put a huge damper on the whole book for me (of course she shipped the two pretty hard). Jughead from the Archie comics is a really particularly odd example. I personally knew nothing about the comics before the Riverdale show was announced, but in the midst of it I did find out that Jughead was intentionally asexual and most likely also aromantic (google image search "Jughead asexual" and you'll find all kinds of hilarious quotable moments). Sadly, even though his actor in the show was all for the idea of keeping this canon, the writers didn't agree. Instead I guess he's ambiguously angsty and brooding and """different""" for no actual reason, and he still gets a girlfriend. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't actually know because I've tried to stay as far away from Riverdale as possible. But so much for educating pop culture on an aro/ace narrative... Next, since the new season three of Stranger Things, there seems to be a bunch of people anxious to know whether Will might be gay. This is a nice thought, sure, but given that the only evidence is his lack of a girlfriend and Mike saying he "doesn't like girls," it's not very compelling... most people seem to be ignoring that not liking girls does not equal liking boys. Obviously for us, this is very frustrating. And actually, one could much more easily make the argument for him being aro/ace because he always seems so tired by his friends' relationships, always wishing they could play D&D like they used to. Poor guy. He even told his mom, at breakfast after being grossed out by his older brother and Nancy, "I'm never going to fall in love." Like hello And finally, I just finished watching the recent tv adaptation of Good Omens. I get particularly mixed feelings here. On the one hand, I totally get why people really really love shipping Crowley and Aziraphale because their dynamic is such a good mix of comical shenanigans and genuinely touching moments. But while I was watching the way they interacted over the course of the show, instead of hoping they'd kiss, I was just thinking "wow I want whatever this is real bad" (speaking as someone who's hoping for a QPR type of thing in my own life). Like, I'm really invested in how their relationship develops in canon, but I don't feel the need to imagine it going any """further""" because it's already my ideal situation. But the fandom is downright obsessed with them as a romantic and sexual thing. Like it's literally all there is. The whole "ineffable husbands" thing gives me war flashbacks straight to 2014 johnlock. Yeesh... ? Well this has been a rant. Again, people can enjoy whatever they want, I just wish there was a little more room for me.

Limerence- I’ve never heard of this word! According to google it seems like it’s generally a synonym for romantic attraction (at least to general society) but it seems to me like the way you’re using it defines it in a way that encompasses “platonic attraction” or what one feels in a squish. It’s like a state of mind toward a person rather than a desire to go through with specific romantically coded actions. Very interesting. I think I might bring this up in another topic; a while back I think there was some discussion over the term “platonic attraction” and whether attraction was really the right word. Maybe “platonic limerence” has a place.

I don’t use any of these terms because I can’t pin myself down, but I’m sure it’s still useful for others. Being grey/lithromantic though, I can sometimes like the idea of romantic things in theory, but in practice get really uncomfortable. It’s too situational and/or fluctuating to really say for sure.

I resonate a lot with this personally. I see others in romantic relationships having deep emotional connections and being affectionate, and I think to myself that it seems nice and I wish I could have that. But then when it comes down to it, my attraction to others is fickle, and someone reciprocating my feelings generally freaks me out a little. If friendships were more commonly affectionate (especially physically) I would be satisfied with that. Goodness, I am so touch starved

I chose to come out to my mom as asexual when I was 16 (I’m aromantic also but at the time I was sort of lumping the two together). The way I handled it was by explaining my experiences first, before attaching any identity words to it. I tried to stress how it was out of my control, not influenced by fear or any sort of emotional trauma or morals (because people tend to think it’s just like celibacy, ya know). To try to get her to empathize, I asked her to explain how she knows she’s not attracted to women, and used that to relate to how I feel the same way, but about everyone. At the time, she seemed to sort of get it. Looking back though, I wish I would have put my foot down a little harder about getting my parents to leave me alone. Even though it’s been 4 years and I’ve still never dated, they’re still holding onto the idea that I will. I’ve been psychoanalyzed to my wit’s end, called sheltered, immature, insecure, and even too focused on my schooling, not having enough “fun.” I don’t mean to discourage you, but you should be prepared for the possibility of a negative outcome. Ultimately, my mom is just so overly concerned that I’ll be lonely, she’s literally projecting her own fears from when she was my age onto me. When she was 20, she was terrified of ending up alone, and she married the first guy she ever seriously dated (she met my dad when she was my age!) So it’s like a different world, where she comes from. In case this happens to you, I’d try to express how her intrusions are really hurtful. At the very least, she should not be pestering you this much. That’s just so wrong. Her desire to be in on the gossip or whatever is not worth the detriment to your mental health. I understand the worry that coming out will ereversibly change your relationship with your mom, but consider this: it’s already impacting your relationship with her. The division is already there, but right now you’re bearing all the burden. But of course you should wait until you’re truly ready and mentally prepared for whatever may happen when you come out. If you can get yourself into a mindset where her reaction one way or the other won’t impact your self worth or make you feel like it’s the end of the world, that is your best bet, in my opinion.

Uff da... yeah it’s not easy figuring these things out sometimes. I’m ace as well and in those forums I found it really helpful to hear from people who were greyace and had felt sexual attraction before, to really understand what exactly I wasn’t feeling, since that’s so hard to judge. So, take this with a grain of salt because it’s my one and only personal perspective and no one else’s necessarily, but I’ll do my best to describe romantic attraction for me as someone who’s greyaro: number one thing is I can’t control it. It comes seemingly out of left field when I’m not at all thinking about it, and it’s a hard hit. Ordinary things about the person become spectacular and give me a warm fuzzy excited feeling, and a certain fondness grows. I mean like I’ll get all jazzed about a person’s nose, for goodness sake. And it’s not really like looking at a painting or reading a poem thinking it’s beautiful. It’s not quite sane, really... it feels like there’s another voice that’s taken over in my head and sometimes I’m sitting back observing myself like “?????????? where did this come from??” But despite my logical half I’m compelled to spend time with them and get to know them and be physically close. Some people might simply define romantic attraction as feeling compelled to kiss someone on the lips. Whatever the case, the lack of control over it mentally is the main thing to me. It’s what separates the experience from the kind of “what if” romantic thinking I normally have that doesn’t turn out to be romantic attraction at all, just like intrusive thoughts, almost. But you know what? Being unsure is okay. You can choose to either be content with not knowing for the time being, or you can experiment, if you genuinely think that would help. And whatever comes out of that is fine and valid so long as you’re growing as a person.

To begin with, I don’t think these dreams necessarily have any bearing on whether you’re aro. As has been pointed out, if in your day to day life you experience a lack of romantic attraction to real people in real scenarios, that is enough. I can see how it might be a confusing experience though. People dream about all kinds of wild things that don’t really say much about them as a person, because while you sleep your brain is crash testing even the most unlikely possibilities that could come up in life. Society, and maybe your friends and family, are probably giving your brain signals that a romantic relationship is desirable, so it makes sense that your dreams would attempt to roleplay that desire. Whether you actually want to pursue it in real life is up to you. And even then, wanting a romantic relationship and actually being genuinely attracted to a specific person are two very different things.

That’s where the “and/or” and the second part of the statement (which you cut off) came in. I was trying to cover all the bases of different ways people know they’re trans, but it’s kinda hard to do without being long winded

“Male assigned at birth” is indeed more or less just a fancy way of saying “this person was raised as a boy.” However, in the case you mentioned, I don’t think she would be considered a trans woman because the term “male assigned at birth” really is referring to someone’s birth sex being “male,” but it’s just not usually considered accurate to say a trans woman “used to be a boy.” Hence we say a trans woman was assigned the male gender to express that the way she presented when she was younger was inconsistent with her actual identity. The case you mentioned sounds a lot more like that of David Reimer, who was raised as a girl after his genitals were accidentally ruined in an attempt to give him a circumcision. He experienced a great deal of trauma and pain from being forced into such a life without his knowledge, and the fact that he still insisted on being a boy is often cited as proof that gender is innate and not learned from society. He is not considered trans, but his case does offer some substance to the validity of trans people.

I’ve encountered your perspective a lot, and no, I don’t think it’s transphobic. I think it’s in a way a side effect of the “privilege” you have as a cis person that gender doesn’t have to be a deep existential consideration in your life. And that’s okay to have that viewpoint, so long as you try to understand that being trans is more than just a response to gender stereotypes. People will often say, “well, I don’t like makeup either, but that doesn’t make me a man!” as a way to try to discredit the experiences of trans people (not saying that’s what you’re doing I’m just making an example). But at its most basic level, being trans is about being uncomfortable with people perceiving you as the gender assigned to you at birth, and/or knowing on some ineffable level that you are a man/a woman/non-binary and that being perceived as such makes you content. I don’t speak for the trans community of course (no one does) but hopefully that helps you grasp the difference.

I’ve been playing Stardew Valley for 5 in-game years and my character is still single with no plans to pursue any of the eligible villagers. Meanwhile it seems like everyone else playing the game considers marriage one of their main goals?? Please tell me there are some fellow aro Stardew Valley fans out there who are bothered by this

I've had all kinds of people assume I'm either gay or straight, so personally I feel like worrying about appearances isn't very productive. Plus no one should get in the way of you dressing in the way that is most self-expressive for you. As for how to deal with people in the moment, my personal strategy is to laugh and act like what they're saying is absurd to me. Ex: if someone asked, "Who's your celebrity crush right now?" I'd frown, scoff/laugh, and say something like "yeah I don't get those man." If you make yourself look confident enough, people may be taken aback, but hopefully they're more likely to take you seriously. I try to make it clear that not only am I specifically not gay/not straight, I'm not into anyone period. With acquaintances/people who probably won't know what being aro-ace means, I focus on giving them the definitions instead of the words. Also, if someone's flirting with you and you express discomfort, that person should come to a complete stop, no questions, and no matter if they think you're just closeted. Heck, let them think you're being frigid even. That's their problem. I totally sympathize with feeling caught up in other people's perceptions and having mixed emotions about seeming gay though. It can be super jarring and make me want to shrink away from the situation, but it's possible to take that feeling of indignation turn it into a comeback.

Going off of that, I think there’s a desire not to think of aromanticism as a lack of something because “defining against” is something that’s looked down on. It’s a bad thing when you’re speaking about politics or culture/ethnocentrism etc. But there’s no harm in saying aromanticism is a lack of romantic attraction just like it makes sense to say a blind person lacks eyesight. A blind person might also argue that their sense of hearing is heightened, but that’s a personal identification in addition to the basic definition of blindness. So you can go ahead and say being aromantic makes you more focused on your friends or your career, but I think that’s a very individual choice.

Quick note: I know people already touched on this but instead of saying more than friends you can say it’s “on a different level.” Key word “different” and not “more.” In a situation like yours, it is important to keep asking yourself what it is you would like to have happen with this person, even though you aren’t sure. Try different scenarios out in your mind and see how they feel. That may help your confusion. For example, I’m greyaromantic, meaning for me that I experience some romantic attraction, just only on rare occasions. So I can sort of give you an idea. I can tell when I’m feeling romantic attraction because it excites me not just to be friends with someone but also to become physically close to them as in kissing/cuddling. If that’s something I actively want then I consider it romantic. And I definitely feel a difference between thinking someone is good-looking (what we call aesthetic attraction, which is like thinking a painting is beautiful) and thinking someone is physically attractive in a romantic sense. If I’m romantically attracted to someone, even conventionally unattractive things about them or things I wouldn’t normally notice are really appealing to me, pleasing in an exciting way. But all this is just how I define my own experience. Other people might not consider kissing/cuddling necessarily romantic at all, for instance. It’s all about what is a useful distinction to you. Don’t worry, you’ll work it out!

My gosh, all I can think is this girl should really be in therapy, for everyone's sake. People don't get that way for no reason, and I'm guessing her relationship history might have something to do with it. (so if there's any way to suggest that to her in a kind and nonchalant way, that might be the only productive thing you can do for her) I hope the other friends in your life are lifting you up out of this. You deserve to have your identity and boundaries respected. And none of this is on your shoulders to solve in any way. I'm so sorry it's been so long now. Im sure at this point it feels like a worn out and pointless saying, but all things pass. I've been out of high school and in university at a large school for two whole years now, and this made me realize how much I now take for granted how easily I can ghost people if I need to. But I used to live in a small town with one school system surrounded by people I'd known since kindergarten; I understand how trapped you must feel. If you need someone to help bring you out of that space mentally once in a while, I'm here. And I'm sure everyone else on this site would say the same

Yes. To me it defines the difference between a passive thought and an active draw toward someone for any reason. For me personally, since I identify as greyaro, that distinction is very important in discerning whether I'm experiencing one of the rare times I'm romantically attracted to someone or just thinking hypothetically. Kinda? Insofar as it applies directly to a squish, I guess. To me a squish is being drawn to someone because I admire them in some way or get excited about something we have in common to the point of going out of my way to interact with them, but not wanting it to go any "further" than friendship. I guess technically that's both platonic and a form of attraction so definitionally it's platonic attraction. But it's not a term I'd use much. I'm more likely to just say I have a squish on them. A feeling is something experienced in the body, not to do with logic, but still mental in a way, mixed with a physical sensation. Attraction is a feeling combined with a desire to take some kind of action towards a person in order to become closer to them. Maybe in terms of "platonic attraction" I'd see this as the difference between a friend of convenience/a friend I'm not deeply emotionally bonded with, and a friend with whom I'm fostering a strong connection, someone I'd miss when they're not around.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing that post. In the past I considered identifying as demiromantic, but it didn’t fit because it didn’t seem like any special emotional bond had to be formed for me to experience romantic attraction, but there is something else that goes along with it and I think it might be sensual like you said, physical but not sexual. I think maybe for me it might have to be a combination of sensual attraction in addition to the usual feelings that go with a squish (friendship compatibility). These feelings don’t necessarily lead to anything romantic though because I think they’ve happened to me briefly or vaguely before, in instances where they come up but romantic attraction does not occur. I definitely used to jump on those instances when I was a kid, like “ah-ha! a crush!” but then later I’d realize I was just trying to force myself to feel romantically about them because I wanted what other people had/to be normal. Sooo maybe some variation of that micro-label might apply to me too? Idk where I’d feel the need to use it though, unless I was getting into a deep discussion like this one.

Identifying as greyaro (sp?) can be really useful precisely because it is so vague, making it applicable to a lot of different experiences and even changes in understanding of oneself. With that in mind, I'm curious, if you identify your romantic orientation this way, what led you to do so? I'd love to hear other people's musings about it, and don't worry, I'm not trying to create a cohesive definition where there is none. For myself personally, I have a variety of reasons: -I tend to feel totally aromantic like 90% of the time. I find it useful to tell people that I'm just not interested in anyone "that way," because the odds are overwhelmingly not in anyone's favor. I feel like the stars have to be aligned, the wind has to be going at 5.7 mph, and someone in the next room has to sneeze, but it can happen. lol -When I do feel romantically attracted to someone, it almost always seems pretty minimal, or unreliable, compared to most people. I can easily brush it off if there's a condemning factor like the person already being in a relationship, or not attracted to guys, etc. (I count this within the 90% aro part because it's all very logic-based). Also, I've had a lot of "crushes" turn out to be squishes, and being real close friends with someone is completely satisfying to me, no real need to go any further. -The other 10% accounts for maybe just a couple of instances in my whole life, where I've been completely gobsmacked. I know there's a difference because I have no control over it logically like I normally do and there's an obvious physical element (though not what I'd call sexual). Still, it's hard to tell what I really want (a romantic relationship? a QPR? something in between?) Please, whether you have a similar or different personal definition, I want to hear about it!

Alright I got a silly one So one of my friends has a birthday less than a week before mine, and last time since it wasn’t over spring break we decided to have a joint birthday party. Afterward we hung out just the two of us and she thought it’d be fun to do my birth chart. I’m an Aries, although I don’t really pay that kind of stuff any mind. So when she started reading about what my Venus was (that’s the love/sex one, also in Aries for me), and it talked about how flirty, romantic, and saucy I’m supposed to be, I just started laughing hysterically. She was like “oh hey, I don’t think you ever mentioned to me what your orientation is” and when I was like I’m aro/ace lmao, she started losing it too and we were both howling as she tried to read the rest of it