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Louis Hypo

What counts as LGBT

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22 hours ago, Just like Jughead said:

Bisexual people are really only counted if they are in a same-gender relationship. Otherwise, they are not welcomed.

As an observation to do with gay/lesbian hierarchies maybe, but bi people aren't attracted to one gender until they switch to the other and then switch back. My friend has some very good points about this issue (as a bi female with a boyfriend) so I wouldn't be doing any excluding if I were you.

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On 01/11/2016 at 11:58 PM, Just like Jughead said:

Bisexual people are really only counted if they are in a same-gender relationship. Otherwise, they are not welcomed. I suspect the same will always be the case with asexual and aromantic people. 

 

On 02/11/2016 at 0:42 AM, Zemaddog said:

There has also been a push recently (albeit, a rather small one) to remove transgender from the LGBT+ community. Why? I don't know. There's always been gatekeepers in the LGBT+ community.

This isn't a recent thing. Its been like that for ages... Its because some people are hoping to be "the good queers", aka not pissing off conservatives, not looking queer, not sounding queer, not engaging in queer culture, not talking about being queer and conducting all their stealth af personal lives in the closet. They basically believe that invisibility would solve all our problems and can't stand "bad queers" how can't/won't pass as cis and/or heterosexual. They are the most aggressive towards non-passing trans women, but the hate effenimate gay men, butch lesbians and twinky transmen as well. Its basically a part privilege, a part internalised bs and a part fear wrapped in nice fluffy ideology.

 

On 02/11/2016 at 10:53 PM, Louis Hypo said:

As an observation to do with gay/lesbian hierarchies maybe, but bi people aren't attracted to one gender until they switch to the other and then switch back. My friend has some very good points about this issue (as a bi female with a boyfriend) so I wouldn't be doing any excluding if I were you.

 

I think all multiple gender attracted people have different stories and feelings, and even people's actions who are 100% same gender attracted may be affected by compulsory heterosexuality, experiemnting, sex work etc. And bisexuality and homosexuality wasn't even a separate concept not so long ago, there is a generation alive who grew up with the two being basically the same. These labels should not be ticklists, as people are organic beings and that comes with diversity.

Gold star elitism was invented by radfem lesbians who are quite detouched from the reality of many LGBTQ+ people's lives and are insecure in their relationships.

 

Point is, this community was founded by bi and trans women so I don't think they can be kicked out of their own spaces.

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Been feeling weird lately due to being vaguely on the edge of LBGT, and with recent politics (especially here in North Carolina) feeling vaguely guilty about being sexually/romantically different in basically the safest way possible (experiencing sexual attraction without a need for actual sexual or romantic relations with others).

I guess what I should do about it is see if there is any way to get involved in helping people who are worse off. Any advice on how to look into that as someone who lives on a college campus but does not have a car?

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On 6/15/2016 at 9:42 AM, morallygayro said:

Yes, but even 1 non LGBT person using LGBT spaces is 1 person too many - especially if they're taking up the line at a suicide hotline, a bed in a youth shelter, or scholarship money.

 

Seriously? You want to deny beds in a youth shelter or suicide hotline help to someone because they're not LGBT enough? If an aro or ace person has any interest in calling a suicide hotline or going to a youth shelter, they clearly have big problems. You're going to tell someone who's suicidal or homeless that they don't deserve help because they're a heteroromantic asexual or heterosexual aromantic? What is wrong with you? 

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On 10/27/2016 at 1:45 PM, Miles said:,   .:    ,  
  • There is a lot of homophobia (the word allosexual and all derivatives of it, the concept of allosexual privilege, making jokes about STDs and sex being sinful, sex negativity and slut shaming) and transphobia (trying to pit BT against LG people, erasing trans and nonbinary gay people, comparing trans people who are uncomfortable with aces and aros calling themselves queer to TERFs and truscum) in the ace and aro communities and LGBT aces and aros deserve an escape from that.

 

Did you seriously claim that the term allosexual is homophobic? Calling a lesbian woman allosexual is no more homophobic than calling her cisgender.

As for allosexual privilege, personally I'm not sure it's separate from straight privilege, except that if I'd been a lesbian instead of an asexual, I wouldn't be getting so much hate from allosexual LGB people.

Sex negativity and slut shaming are bad things. Erasing non-binary identities is a bad thing. So is misogyny - I met a misogynistic bisexual guy on an LGBT forum, and people challenged his beliefs, but they never claimed that bisexual men don't belong in a community with women in it because this guy was a misogynist. We can condemn rotten attitudes without treating those attitudes as representative of everyone who shares that person's labels.

And as for pitting LG against BT and comparing trans people to TERFs, the people I've seen doing stuff that could be interpreted that way were trying to point out anti-ace and anti-aro discrimination by drawing analogies. Because guess what? Trans people who object to aros and aces calling themselves queer are acting very much like TERFs. Both groups are excluding someone who shares heavily overlapping prejudice with them because they misperceive them as being members of the privileged group trying to infiltrate their 'safe space'. If you as a trans person don't like TERFs, you shouldn't treat another group that way. 

On 10/27/2016 at 2:01 PM, Miles said:

I don't get why you're telling your relatives you're ace in the first place. And a lot of that general aro/acephobia results from misogyny, ableism, racism, and misdirected homophobia.

 

If some guy sexually assaults me because I rejected his advances and told him it was because I'm not attracted to men, does it really matter if he thought I was a lesbian or an asexual? (And I have had a guy try to sexually assault me for this reason, and another come pretty close - luckily in both cases they backed down when I made it clear that I wouldn't let them get away with it. I am terrified of meeting a guy who won't be deterred so easily someday.) If a boy who wants to wear a dress gets bullied and called 'gay', does it really matter whether he actually is gay or just an effeminate straight guy? Misdirected or not, both of them are targets of homophobia. 

And as for why we tell our families, why does anyone come out? Why not just pretend your girlfriend is your best friend, or pretend you're just a tomboy rather than a nonbinary AFAB? Because living a lie sucks. Being pressured to be something you'll never be sucks. Sometimes it sucks so much that you need to live honestly, whatever the cost, because otherwise you won't be able to live at all. 

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12 hours ago, Ettina said:

 

Did you seriously claim that the term allosexual is homophobic? Calling a lesbian woman allosexual is no more homophobic than calling her cisgender.

As for allosexual privilege, personally I'm not sure it's separate from straight privilege, except that if I'd been a lesbian instead of an asexual, I wouldn't be getting so much hate from allosexual LGB people.

Sex negativity and slut shaming are bad things. Erasing non-binary identities is a bad thing. So is misogyny - I met a misogynistic bisexual guy on an LGBT forum, and people challenged his beliefs, but they never claimed that bisexual men don't belong in a community with women in it because this guy was a misogynist. We can condemn rotten attitudes without treating those attitudes as representative of everyone who shares that person's labels.

And as for pitting LG against BT and comparing trans people to TERFs, the people I've seen doing stuff that could be interpreted that way were trying to point out anti-ace and anti-aro discrimination by drawing analogies. Because guess what? Trans people who object to aros and aces calling themselves queer are acting very much like TERFs. Both groups are excluding someone who shares heavily overlapping prejudice with them because they misperceive them as being members of the privileged group trying to infiltrate their 'safe space'. If you as a trans person don't like TERFs, you shouldn't treat another group that way. 

 

If some guy sexually assaults me because I rejected his advances and told him it was because I'm not attracted to men, does it really matter if he thought I was a lesbian or an asexual? (And I have had a guy try to sexually assault me for this reason, and another come pretty close - luckily in both cases they backed down when I made it clear that I wouldn't let them get away with it. I am terrified of meeting a guy who won't be deterred so easily someday.) If a boy who wants to wear a dress gets bullied and called 'gay', does it really matter whether he actually is gay or just an effeminate straight guy? Misdirected or not, both of them are targets of homophobia. 

And as for why we tell our families, why does anyone come out? Why not just pretend your girlfriend is your best friend, or pretend you're just a tomboy rather than a nonbinary AFAB? Because living a lie sucks. Being pressured to be something you'll never be sucks. Sometimes it sucks so much that you need to live honestly, whatever the cost, because otherwise you won't be able to live at all. 

Just so you're aware, @Miles and @morallygayro have both been banned. You can find more information in the Banned Members thread. If you'd like to hide their posts so you don't see them in future, go to their profiles and click "ignore". Thanks :) 

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20 hours ago, Ettina said:

And as for pitting LG against BT and comparing trans people to TERFs, the people I've seen doing stuff that could be interpreted that way were trying to point out anti-ace and anti-aro discrimination by drawing analogies. Because guess what? Trans people who object to aros and aces calling themselves queer are acting very much like TERFs. Both groups are excluding someone who shares heavily overlapping prejudice with them because they misperceive them as being members of the privileged group trying to infiltrate their 'safe space'. If you as a trans person don't like TERFs, you shouldn't treat another group that way. 

 

You know, TERFs actively harass trans people (primarily trans women), right? And you know that they want us dead? That they've harassed children for being trans, constantly called them rapists? Do you know how many people have died at the hands of TERFs, and how much suffering their hatred has caused? And that trans people have always been part of the LGBT community, whereas ace and aro people (on the basis of being ace/aro) haven't?

That is in no way comparable to not wanting (cishet) ace/aro people in LGBT places. Discrimination that ace and aro people isn't heavily overlapped like homophobia and transphobia. There are some similarities, yes, but as ace/aro people haven't been constantly denied basic human rights for their identity/sexuality, it's not on the same level.

 

So, really, comparing trans people to TERFs (especially from a cis person) is a really fucking low blow.

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I personally assess the severity of oppressive groups not by who they attack (because there is never a group that deserves it) but by what they want to do to that minority. Unfairly taxing or excluding some group is bad no doubt, but it's tiny compared to wanting the imprisonment or murder of someone based on something they don't have any control over. Whilst all bigotry follows the same formula you can't always put two forms side by side and expect it to be at all agreeable. I've heard about places in South America where kids with mental disabilities are locked away in their home and are supposedly incarnates of Satan and as much as that is disgusting, I wouldn't compare that to the 'female taxes' or the aforementioned TERFs. Also we're going a bit off topic so it would be nice to get back to the question at hand.

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Not All Three Of The Following:

Cisgender

Heterosexual

Heteromantic

;If you are only one (like me) or even two of these, you are a member of the queer community.

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On 12/14/2016 at 2:59 PM, Simowl said:

 

You know, TERFs actively harass trans people (primarily trans women), right? And you know that they want us dead? That they've harassed children for being trans, constantly called them rapists? Do you know how many people have died at the hands of TERFs, and how much suffering their hatred has caused? And that trans people have always been part of the LGBT community, whereas ace and aro people (on the basis of being ace/aro) haven't?

That is in no way comparable to not wanting (cishet) ace/aro people in LGBT places. Discrimination that ace and aro people isn't heavily overlapped like homophobia and transphobia. There are some similarities, yes, but as ace/aro people haven't been constantly denied basic human rights for their identity/sexuality, it's not on the same level.

 

So, really, comparing trans people to TERFs (especially from a cis person) is a really fucking low blow.

 

Firstly, my comparison was not based on severity of actions (which has at least as much to do with how much power you have as with your moral standards, IMO). It was based on the structure of the argument ("the privileged group is using an invalid identity to pretend to be less privileged and infiltrate safe spaces").

 

Secondly, I'm pretty sure if they had more power to act on it, plenty of aphobes would be doing the same sort of stuff. The amount of hate that some people have for aces and aros is truly disgusting.

 

And thirdly, me being cis should have nothing to do with it. Judge me on the quality of my argument, not on who I am. Being able to win the Oppression Olympics doesn't automatically make someone right. (Incidentally, one of my abusers felt that being an abuse victim gave him license to do whatever he wanted to others, even to the point of sexually assaulting a small child, because even with what he did my life was still easier than his because I had loving parents.) 

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3 hours ago, Ettina said:

Secondly, I'm pretty sure if they had more power to act on it, plenty of aphobes would be doing the same sort of stuff. The amount of hate that some people have for aces and aros is truly disgusting.

There is a possible aro contribution to LGBT history.
That being non-monogamous relationships.
This seems to have been obscured by things such as the 1980's "AIDS crisis"; the 1990's "polyamory" and the political push for "marriage equality".

But then it can be all too common to find biphobia and transphobia within "The LGBT community". Entirely missing that if would not be where it is now (possibly wouldn't exist at all) were it not for bi, trans, ('poly' and kinky) people...
 

3 hours ago, Ettina said:

And thirdly, me being cis should have nothing to do with it. Judge me on the quality of my argument, not on who I am. Being able to win the Oppression Olympics doesn't automatically make someone right.

It dosn't stop people wanting to play.
I long ago reached the conclusion that "winning" can result in gaining political power. Or at least the ability to lobby.

 

3 hours ago, Ettina said:

(Incidentally, one of my abusers felt that being an abuse victim gave him license to do whatever he wanted to others, even to the point of sexually assaulting a small child, because even with what he did my life was still easier than his because I had loving parents.) 

Victims of abuse becoming abusers themselves, sadly, happens far too often.

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I'll admit when I use the term LGBT, I'm typically talking about SGA individuals, but by broader strokes I consider heterosexul trans people and asexuals/aromantics in the community. I just tend to be more into the SGA side of the community because that's where I feel like I belong more.

 

TBH I'm not fond of LGBTQ because it gets shortened to just Q far more than I am comfortable with. I also don't consider cishet intersex people part of the LGBT community tbh, as there's HUGE debates within their community about the lumping together as well.

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On 4/14/2017 at 4:32 PM, JoanieDark said:

I'll admit when I use the term LGBT, I'm typically talking about SGA individuals, but by broader strokes I consider heterosexul trans people and asexuals/aromantics in the community. I just tend to be more into the SGA side of the community because that's where I feel like I belong more.

 

TBH I'm not fond of LGBTQ because it gets shortened to just Q far more than I am comfortable with. I also don't consider cishet intersex people part of the LGBT community tbh, as there's HUGE debates within their community about the lumping together as well.

How are trans people SGA? Also, not all bi are SGA - I know a bi guy who is attracted to female and nonbinary people, but not men.

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On 4/15/2017 at 6:00 PM, Ettina said:

How are trans people SGA? Also, not all bi are SGA - I know a bi guy who is attracted to female and nonbinary people, but not men.

 

I was saying often that's what I, personally, am talking about. I volunteer and participate in a lot of lesbian-oriented communities/charities/events, so it's what comes up most in my conversations. When it comes down to it, I don't talk about aro/ace/men/masculine-aligned individuals much in my regular day-to-day life, just because it's not really the community subset I find myself involved with.

 

I of course recognize trans, non-SGA bi people, etc as part of the community.

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On 16/04/2017 at 0:00 AM, Ettina said:

How are trans people SGA?

Especially GF and GQ. Given how unlikely it might be for us to meet someone who is the same gender...
 

On 16/04/2017 at 0:00 AM, Ettina said:

Also, not all bi are SGA - I know a bi guy who is attracted to female and nonbinary people, but not men.

That sounds more like polysexual.

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11 minutes ago, Mark said:

That sounds more like polysexual.

 

I'm not really gonna police identities, but a lot of people say "bi" as any two or more genders. *shrug* 

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21 hours ago, JoanieDark said:

 

I'm not really gonna police identities, but a lot of people say "bi" as any two or more genders. *shrug* 

My impression is that bi is used as an umbrella term, with polysexual, pansexual, etc used by people who want to be more specific. But it's confusing sometimes, so I just accept that people will use the terms they want to use.  

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As an aromantic (demi)heterosexual (cis) woman, I do consider myself queer. Why? Because anyone who isn't the "cis-gender, heteromantic and heterosexual" combination marches to a different tune. Because that combination is considered "normal" as it applies to 8 out of 10 cases. Anyone who doesn't fit the norm ven in the slightest will unfortunately be judged by someone at some point.

 

It is true that there are no rights I'm deprived of, but there are lots of situations in which I'd generate lots of confusion among people if I were to tell them the truth one way or another. For example about my demisexuality:

 

Person: Do you like boys?

Me: Err....only in certain cases. 

 

Aromanticism:

 

Person: do you have a boyfriend?

Me: nope

Person: how come?

me: because that's not what I look for? :-?

Person: then what do you look for?

me: someone to wait until we get best friends in the first place so I can let them past my soul's last wall of ice because it's the only way I could even consider entering a relationship with someone because otherwhise I can't? O.o

 

or

 

Person: you must be very much in love with your s.o.

Me:Not true

Person: how do you feel about him then?

Me: we're super mega best friends, with affection and strong sexual desire added?xD

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I do consider myself part on the LGBT+ community, but I am trans so this I suppose 'officially' makes me part of it. I do think the A in LGBTQIA+ is Ace/Aro spectrums rather than Ally, but I understand the resentment some Ace/Aro individuals have towards the wider community.

You could also see it differently depending on your other orientations, for Aros sexual orientation (and Visa versa for Aces). If you're Heterosexual Aro you might feel not LGBT+, but If you're homo you definately are. For Aro Aces like me I would say like above, It's a personal feeling.

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On 5/16/2017 at 5:01 AM, SamwiseLovesLife said:

I do consider myself part on the LGBT+ community, but I am trans so this I suppose 'officially' makes me part of it. I do think the A in LGBTQIA+ is Ace/Aro spectrums rather than Ally, but I understand the resentment some Ace/Aro individuals have towards the wider community.

You could also see it differently depending on your other orientations, for Aros sexual orientation (and Visa versa for Aces). If you're Heterosexual Aro you might feel not LGBT+, but If you're homo you definately are. For Aro Aces like me I would say like above, It's a personal feeling.

For me, as another aroace, if I'm going to be lumped in with another orientation, the closest would be bi/pan, because I feel the same degree of sexual and romantic attraction to both genders. And if you count platonic attraction (which will determine who, if anyone, I get into a romantic or queerplatonic relationship with), then I'm bi with a preference for the same gender. Either way, no matter how you look at it, lumping me in with straight allo-allos is completely wrong.

 

And personally, my take on het aces and het aros is that they're as much straight as AFAB demigirls and AMAB demiboys are cis. Which is to say, not really.

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On 07/06/2017 at 3:24 PM, Ettina said:

And personally, my take on het aces and het aros is that they're as much straight as AFAB demigirls and AMAB demiboys are cis. Which is to say, not really.

I like this way of looking at it

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Inclusion and the LGBTQ+ community is a very difficult topic, and I won't pretend I have the answers. I understand both sides of the arguments for and against aro and/or ace people having a part in the community. Apologies in advance for length.

 

I have always liked GSRM better as an aro-including acronym because the idea behind it is solidarity in being a [potentially] disrespected and misunderstood minority. However, the LGBT movement is rooted in decades of important history and fighting for rights. We can't pretend that aros/aces face the same danger and oppression that many LGBT folks do, but neither do I believe that it's an oppression Olympics. People who have Passing Privileges (for straight, for cisgendered) will naturally have an easier time navigating the world. They may require fewer resources, but that does not diminish their need. The actions and resources implemented on their behalf may be smaller in magnitude than those for more at-risk or in-danger individuals/identities, but that does not translate to "we care less about you."

 

Aros/aces don't need the same magnitude or intensity of support that some LGBT folks do, put bluntly. They just have to be adequately supported at the right scale. Each letter of the LGBT acronym, as far as I understand at least, makes use of a slightly different subset of resources. In this way, no one's crucial resources are stolen from them. Should aros/aces be included in the acronym, they may have access to way fewer or different resources simply because their issues are not the same (in type or scale) as those people who are in danger for expressing their identities or orientations.

 

The community as it is now is growing much bigger and is finally gaining traction (I'm speaking from a Canadian point of view); it really does have enough power and members to include and accommodate everyone. But in the cases of smaller communities, prioritization may have to take place, as much as we really hate it. A big part of managing a political group is economics, and the best economic decisions for sustaining the group may unfortunately be (temporary or not) exclusion. In these cases, allyship are where aros/aces need to be at. LGBT is united in fighting against stigmatization and oppression of people because of their identities and orientations. Don't necessarily take exclusion personally.

 

On the other hand, I have heard many stories of aros/aces being shunned for "being heartless" or "sociopaths," aros/aces being "rehabilitated" or "fixed," in sometimes violent ways, to convince them that they have to feel these attractions to be a functional human being, and being actively excluded by straight and LGBT communities alike. As well, a lot of aro/ace legal problems are also highly related to problems amatonormativity brings us (as such, perhaps aro/ace activism may center around this just as other letters in LGBTQ+ typically have major foci, as much as they may also concern themselves with minor foci). Discrimination is unacceptable, and, even if not that often, can be attributed to disrimination against orientation. How do we fight against this? So many of us just don't know where to start. There are not enough of us in number to "just go off and form a community" by ourselves.

 

As LGBT folks needed allies in the past to get going, so do aro/ace folks. What better community to look to than LGBT? This is the main reason I would argue for LGBTQ+ aro/ace inclusion. It's not a "take us in so we can sap your time and resources for ourselves," it's a plea for guidance and solidarity where we have little. Eventually, the goal is that the LGBTQ+ community will not be in opposition agaibst anyone, where 'most everyone in society is accepting of each other. Admitting more and more people (even and especially as allies, whatever their labels) is desirable for this reason. 

 

But again, economics. And, crucially, SAFETY. Many allies will not immediately understand that they can't out people they've met in the community. When LGBT communities really can't accommodate anyone else, because of time and resource constraints, or serious safety concerns, then that's fine. But in the grandest and biggest LGBTQ+ political movement, I believe we have a place as a supporting pillar in the larger context of awareness. People have the right to live and love as they want, so long as no one is getting hurt because of it.

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I would advocate for including anyone who feels like they should be included in the LGBTQ+ community, especially since the LGBTQ+ community doesn't have any one unifying issue or trait that applies to all LGBT (even without the Q+) people. Some people try to argue that same-gender attraction is that, but there are straight trans folks who still fall under the "T" in LGBT. There are some specific spaces that are oriented towards one particular subset of the LGBTQ+ community because they are focused on one particular issue that affects some but not all members of the LGBTQ+ community, and others would be considered allies in those spaces, but in the broader community, I think it's most productive to say that all who feel they belong are welcome, rather than waste time discussing who belongs and who doesn't.

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