What counts as LGBT

[Zema]

31 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

We can ABSOLUTELY have a safe space of our own, where we can talk about the struggles of being ace and/or aro, and of course SGA, MGA, and trans/nonbinary aros and aces belong in both...but the ace and aro community should be separate from LGBT.

(Note: I am only talking about people who are aromantic and asexual)

 

While I don't consider myself LGBT+, I can see why other aroaces might. I understand that other members of the LGBT+ community experience very different problems from aroace people. If you didn't know, only around 20% of asexuals are also aromantic and, if we go by the 1% of the population is asexual estimate, that leaves aroaces at a minuscule 0.2% of the population. I consider myself extremely lucky to have found another aroace in real life. So I have no issue with aroaces who might consider themselves LGBT+ to at least try and find someone who is similar to them. Because outside of the internet, it is impractical to start up an aro and ace community. And let's be real here, aroaces are not straight.

 

Let's also not forget that trans people can be straight, and they are still very much a part of the LGBT+ community. We shouldn't be using our differences to separate ourselves, but to bring us together. Heteronormativity affects everyone who is not cisgendered and/or not straight. Don't forget that.

 

I can understand the need for separate subcommunities though. If a gay person only wants to be around other gay people, they have every right to that. But as a whole we should be bringing ourselves together.

[Kojote]

12 hours ago, morallygayro said:

https://thisistheateam.blogspot.com/2016/05/yes-hetero-spec-people-are-straight-and.html?m=0

I have read this one and I agree. 

I see how the LGBT does need a separate safe space, If this is a specific L+B+G+T space, anyone should respect that and behave like an ally, rather than trying to squeeze themselves in. (Even I just changed from AVEN to Arocalypse because I did feel alien to the cis-ace community. Plus there's currently an "ally" over there, that defends romance with a passion and get's mad, aggressive und judgy about all aro-spec experiences. Asking what's "wrong with us", but that is besides the point. The point is that probably any identity wishes for and deserves a space of their own). 

 

It's never ok for anyone being homo- or bi- or transphobic, but let's face it: anyone can be that way. There are gay bi-phobics or bi-transphobics or LGBT a-phobics. Anyone with this mindset shouldn't have the right to invade any community or safe space. People also shouldn't butt into identities they don't belong to. 

But Aces and Aros, even cis-hets, still experience alienation, still experience the fear of being different and they should be able to find a place in real life, were they can at least share that experience with others. With people who know what it feels like to find out that they are different..

Internet aside, were we can and are creating different communities targeted at different identities, it's not always easy to find an A+ and A+ only space. I have yet to even meet another Aro in real life anywhere, while I do know a few aces, trans, non-binary, bi and gay people. For someone who's idk, maybe 14-15 and just going through this whole mess and confusion, an LGBT community might be the only space they can go to. 

 

If someone is LGBT-phobic or being a general asshole to your community, by all means kick them out. If someone is mislabeling them-self just for convenience, tell them off. But don't just kick someone out of an umbrella term (LGBTQIA) for their identity (or questioning identity) alone. On that matter, don't use this prick David Jay against A+ as an identity worth being part of an overall bigger community. Even if they are cis-het and for that matter are treated as straight people.

 

Long story short: yes, I thing cis-het aces and aros are straight (not so much aro aces though). Yes I do think we should respect specifically labeled L+G+B+T(+Q) spaces as being theirs and their topics and fears and oppression as their's and not as an A+ issue. But I also think we shouldn't throw another set of people who feel at odds with the world and are suffering and self-hating because of a label we stuck on them under the bus and tell them there is no place for them here. As long as they are descend and confused people who are hurting and need a helping hand, you should extend one, no matter your letter in an alphabet. And if someone is a biggot, no matter their sexual or romantic orientation, they can fuck off. 

 

So could we maybe please treat people as individuals with varying rights and needs for a community like that, no matter the title, instead of checking their identification letter at the front door like some brave new world? 

[morallygayro]

12 hours ago, Zemaddog said:

(Note: I am only talking about people who are aromantic and asexual)

 

While I don't consider myself LGBT+, I can see why other aroaces might. I understand that other members of the LGBT+ community experience very different problems from aroace people. If you didn't know, only around 20% of asexuals are also aromantic and, if we go by the 1% of the population is asexual estimate, that leaves aroaces at a minuscule 0.2% of the population. I consider myself extremely lucky to have found another aroace in real life. So I have no issue with aroaces who might consider themselves LGBT+ to at least try and find someone who is similar to them. Because outside of the internet, it is impractical to start up an aro and ace community. And let's be real here, aroaces are not straight.

 

Let's also not forget that trans people can be straight, and they are still very much a part of the LGBT+ community. We shouldn't be using our differences to separate ourselves, but to bring us together. Heteronormativity affects everyone who is not cisgendered and/or not straight. Don't forget that.

 

I can understand the need for separate subcommunities though. If a gay person only wants to be around other gay people, they have every right to that. But as a whole we should be bringing ourselves together.

Yes, but even 1 non LGBT person using LGBT spaces is 1 person too many - especially if they're taking up the line at a suicide hotline, a bed in a youth shelter, or scholarship money.

[morallygayro]

1 hour ago, Kojote said:

I have read this one and I agree. 

I see how the LGBT does need a separate safe space, If this is a specific L+B+G+T space, anyone should respect that and behave like an ally, rather than trying to squeeze themselves in. (Even I just changed from AVEN to Arocalypse because I did feel alien to the cis-ace community. Plus there's currently an "ally" over there, that defends romance with a passion and get's mad, aggressive und judgy about all aro-spec experiences. Asking what's "wrong with us", but that is besides the point. The point is that probably any identity wishes for and deserves a space of their own). 

 

It's never ok for anyone being homo- or bi- or transphobic, but let's face it: anyone can be that way. There are gay bi-phobics or bi-transphobics or LGBT a-phobics. Anyone with this mindset shouldn't have the right to invade any community or safe space. People also shouldn't butt into identities they don't belong to. 

But Aces and Aros, even cis-hets, still experience alienation, still experience the fear of being different and they should be able to find a place in real life, were they can at least share that experience with others. With people who know what it feels like to find out that they are different..

Internet aside, were we can and are creating different communities targeted at different identities, it's not always easy to find an A+ and A+ only space. I have yet to even meet another Aro in real life anywhere, while I do know a few aces, trans, non-binary, bi and gay people. For someone who's idk, maybe 14-15 and just going through this whole mess and confusion, an LGBT community might be the only space they can go to. 

 

If someone is LGBT-phobic or being a general asshole to your community, by all means kick them out. If someone is mislabeling them-self just for convenience, tell them off. But don't just kick someone out of an umbrella term (LGBTQIA) for their identity (or questioning identity) alone. On that matter, don't use this prick David Jay against A+ as an identity worth being part of an overall bigger community. Even if they are cis-het and for that matter are treated as straight people.

 

Long story short: yes, I thing cis-het aces and aros are straight (not so much aro aces though). Yes I do think we should respect specifically labeled L+G+B+T(+Q) spaces as being theirs and their topics and fears and oppression as their's and not as an A+ issue. But I also think we shouldn't throw another set of people who feel at odds with the world and are suffering and self-hating because of a label we stuck on them under the bus and tell them there is no place for them here. As long as they are descend and confused people who are hurting and need a helping hand, you should extend one, no matter your letter in an alphabet. And if someone is a biggot, no matter their sexual or romantic orientation, they can fuck off. 

 

So could we maybe please treat people as individuals with varying rights and needs for a community like that, no matter the title, instead of checking their identification letter at the front door like some brave new world? 

Okay, first of all, stigma and prejudice =/= oppression. There are no systems of power, political corruption, or physical violence targeting aces and aros for being ace or aro.

 

Second, the LGBT community is not a fun acceptance club. It's a human rights coalition, created by and for SGA, MGA, trans, and nonbinary people, in order to protect us from oppression (which I've already explained isn't something that aros and aces face) and in order to help out those of us in dangerous situations. We have a limited number of resources and safe spaces with which to accomplish that and can't afford to share them with people who aren't LGBT - not when our own people are already at risk.

 

Would non LGBT people benefit from our resources? Sure. Cishet PoC. Cishet women. Cishet disabled people. And there are, in fact, systems of political corruption, physical violence, medicalization, etc. targeting all those groups, unlike aros and aces - but does that mean we have to share our already limited resources and safe spaces with them? No. Because they aren't LGBT.

[Rising Sun]

13 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

There are no systems of power, political corruption, or physical violence targeting aces and aros for being ace or aro.

 

The fact that you haven't seen any doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, and that others on this thread haven't experienced it and even escaped death, trust me on this.

[morallygayro]

4 minutes ago, Rising Sun said:

 

The fact that you haven't seen any doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, and that others on this thread haven't experienced it and even escaped death, trust me on this.

Really. What systems of oppression are there against aces and aros that are universally harmful toward aces and aros, rather than 99% of the time only affecting women, PoC, disabled people, LGBT people, etc.?

[Rising Sun]

I'm not talking about oppression, but I'm talking about physical violence (including with guns) against people who aren't straight (and yes, that includes being asexual and aromantic). I'm not talking about a theoretical case here.

[morallygayro]

1 minute ago, Rising Sun said:

I'm not talking about oppression, but I'm talking about physical violence (including with guns) against people who aren't straight (and yes, that includes being asexual and aromantic). I'm not talking about a theoretical case here.

Okay, if it's against aroaces it is possibly violence based on them not being straight, because aroaces aren't straight and are discriminated against for not experiencing m/w attraction. But even for that...again, how much of it is due to:

 

1) misogyny, i.e. ace women being coerced into giving their husbands and boyfriends sex or being threatened when they say no, which in the case of cishet ace women is based in sexism, not heteronormativity? Or aro women facing violence for wanting sex but not romance, because such a thing is seen as unacceptable for women in ways that it isn't for men?

2) racism, i.e. ace PoC being expected to be sexual because of their race, or aro PoC (especially women) facing violence for being sexual and not romantic?

3) misdirected ableism, because aromanticism and asexuality are sometimes mistaken for disabilities and because many neurodivergent aces and aros are ace and/or aro specifically because of their disabilities?

4) misdirected intersexism, because some doctors think there's something "wrong" with asexuals' hormones?

[Jade]

TW: suicide, guilt-tripping, various sexuality-phobias, scrupulosity, angry tone, self-harm. This is very much a vent post for me, and it is extremely triggering. Please be careful and take care of yourself. 

My apologies for this post--it was made in frantic anger and sadness to avoid a panic attack. It is not reasonable, fair, or kind. Ideally it would be, but I cannot always be ideal, and I'm trying to accept that and let myself vent.

 

 

56 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Yes, but even 1 non LGBT person using LGBT spaces is 1 person too many - especially if they're taking up the line at a suicide hotline, a bed in a youth shelter, or scholarship money.

especially if they're taking up the line at a suicide hotline? a bed in a youth shelter?

 

Are you actually saying that, if aros/aces are suicidal because of their sexuality or if they have been thrown out by their parents because of their sexuality, that they deserve to just die rather than get help?

 

And don't tell me that this never happens, because it does. I know people who have become suicidal over being aro/ace; I've seen stories online from people whose parents threw them out for being aro/ace, because it's not straight. These are the most vulnerable members of the community--the mentally ill and those with abusive parents--and you're saying that especially they should die?

 

Don't tell me that "they can pass as straight and so could access resources for straight people". Okay, that's true enough for the aroace kid who got thrown out on the street for being aroace, but it's equally true for the bi girl with a boyfriend whose parents abused her for being bi, and IMHO they both deserve a bed instead of sleeping on the street. And you know who that's not true for? The people calling suicide hotlines. They ask you (after "do you have a plan") why you're suicidal, and if your answer is "because of my sexuality", non-lgbt hotlines won't have the same training required to deal with you. Not to mention the number of suicide hotlines run by religious groups that may actively condemn you (looking at you, twloha)! You may say "oh, well then they should make their own community so they can call their own suicide hotlines." Guess what? We don't have any, and blaming suicidal/abused children for their lack of community is remarkably insensitive. What about the person who gets suicidal due to questioning their gender and had to call a suicide hotline but then later realized they're cis? Did they "not deserve" it, since they're non-LGBT (not lesbian, gay, bi, or trans; not sga or mga or non-binary) and they used an LGBT space, even though they were questioning at the time?

 

Also, in terms of scholarship money--non-LGBT people take LGBT scholarship money all the time. They're called straight allies. While some of them may be closeted people using "straight ally" as a shield, not all of them will be, and to quote you: "even 1 non LGBT person using LGBT spaces is 1 person too many". Interestingly, the best way to prevent this (changing "ally" to "asexual/aromantic") is also opposed by you.

 

Look. This is personal for me. I'm upset, because you were one of the people arguing in the Pulse Shooting thread (although in that thread I agreed with you almost 100%, it was not the right place to argue) and now it's locked, taking away a place for me to express my grief. Talking to you in the other thread gave me a panic attack, because I didn't want to say anything, because I knew that if I did it would be cruel. But I can't take another panic attack right now. So I'm going to stick up for myself.

 

It should be noted that I'm an incredibly scrupulous person, and that this kind of reaction would be uncommon, but if this had been a common argument in seventh grade, when I thought I was aroace, I most likely would have attempted suicide, so as not to take up resources by existing. I might not have called the suicide hotline that saved my life. I would've been terrified to even think about the idea of being gay, since that would be appropriation, silencing, infringing on spaces that made themselves oh so clear that they weren't for people like me. I definitely would have cut myself, most likely repeatedly--I have scars all over my stomach from tumblr arguments. And before you say that you've never heard of people like this (therefore they must not exist or be common), keep in mind that these people are afraid of you, and that your words--that they don't deserve to speak--might silence them further. I'm not saying this so that you'll be afraid to speak your opinion; it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to silence one group of people in defense of another. I've grown since seventh grade. I can also acknowledge that this was most likely not what you intended to say. I can apologize: I'm sorry for this post. I know it's uncharitable, cruel, guilt tripping. But I had to make it, because I can't take all of this without lashing out. But please, think before you speak. Think, for just a second, about the effect your words, that suggest that aros/aces deserve to die if they're not ~~oppressed enough~~, might have on vulnerable people.

 

 

 

Also, regarding your other post--

13 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

What systems of oppression are there against aces and aros that are universally harmful toward aces and aros, rather than 99% of the time only affecting women, PoC, disabled people, LGBT people, etc.?

I'd just like to point out that I could say the same for other groups! A rich, white, abled white gay person in, say, the UK can go through his life without experiencing any oppression (although he may face prejudice). On the other hand, a poor disabled TWoC living in Russia may be utterly unable to do anything without facing systems of oppression. "99% of the time this affects people who are multiply oppressed, instead of affecting everyone equally" is the whole point of intersectionality--it's not necessarily an argument against said group being oppressed.

 

 

For the record: I don't really know if aces/aros should be considered oppressed. I don't know enough about the debate, and I don't have a strong opinion on it. I do have a strong opinion on "should [x group] be helped if they are hurting due to [y issue] even if they're not ~oppressed enough~ on the basis of [y issue]?", and I did want to correct somewhat your argument re:intersectionality. But are aces/aros oppressed? I honestly don't know. Should they be counted in the LGBT community? I think so, at least for now.

[Rising Sun]

2 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Okay, if it's against aroaces it is possibly violence based on them not being straight, because aroaces aren't straight and are discriminated against for not experiencing m/w attraction. But even for that...again, how much of it is due to:

 

1) misogyny, i.e. ace women being coerced into giving their husbands and boyfriends sex or being threatened when they say no, which in the case of cishet ace women is based in sexism, not heteronormativity? Or aro women facing violence for wanting sex but not romance, because such a thing is seen as unacceptable for women in ways that it isn't for men?

2) racism, i.e. ace PoC being expected to be sexual because of their race, or aro PoC (especially women) facing violence for being sexual and not romantic?

3) misdirected ableism, because aromanticism and asexuality are sometimes mistaken for disabilities and because many neurodivergent aces and aros are ace and/or aro specifically because of their disabilities?

4) misdirected intersexism, because some doctors think there's something "wrong" with asexuals' hormones?

 

Nothing of it, in that specific case. When it happened, asexuality was reduced to Kinsey's group X, and aromanticism was totally unknown. Really, the events I'm referring to had nothing to do with simple erasure that is often mentioned on Internet forums. They were more about "you're not straight, so you're a f*ing weirdo and a pervert, and we'll make you pay for that". 

[Kojote]

12 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Okay, first of all, stigma and prejudice =/= oppression. There are no systems of power, political corruption, or physical violence targeting aces and aros for being ace or aro.

 

First of all, I didn't mean to imply that there is for A+ people, if this was your impression, I apologize. I never meant to imply that. 

 

Second of all, you do know you are talking to the internet here, are you not? We are international. And yes, while a lot of places still have horrible, horrible human rights for LGBT, there are places, were coming out as lesbian can be no biggy while coming out as A+ will face prejudice and even ostracism (which is my case, thanks for assuming). 

Take my country for example! While yes, there's still prejudice and the fight is far from being over, same-sex relationships have been legal since the 60s. We even have adoption rights, anti-discrimination laws in employment and housing, most adoption rights, military rights, even an open gateway for hormone therapies, changing of your legal gender and even an official THIRD gender for intersex people. While we don't have gay marriage yet, we've had recognized same-sex partnerships with some of the legal benefits for 15 years now. Even the majority of our conservatives are saying to just legalize it already, since this is just ridicules. 

 

Please don't project the systemic homophobia of your country onto everyone elses and make your point of view universal to everybodies situation.

 

13 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Second, the LGBT community is not a fun acceptance club. It's a human rights coalition, created by and for SGA, MGA, trans, and nonbinary people, in order to protect us from oppression (which I've already explained isn't something that aros and aces face) and in order to help out those of us in dangerous situations. We have a limited number of resources and safe spaces with which to accomplish that and can't afford to share them with people who aren't LGBT - not when our own people are already at risk.

 

Would non LGBT people benefit from our resources? Sure. Cishet PoC. Cishet women. Cishet disabled people. And there are, in fact, systems of political corruption, physical violence, medicalization, etc. targeting all those groups, unlike aros and aces - but does that mean we have to share our already limited resources and safe spaces with them? No. Because they aren't LGBT.

 

While yes, a big part of the LGBT community is activist in nature, some smaller LGBT spots in towns and schools can very much be a "fun acceptance club" (whyever you said that like it's a bad thing). Besides, I never claimed that A+ members should be able to take away your resources. Though I'm really shocked to read that even one person needing help is to much for you to handle.... I did however say, that there are and should be places for L, G, B and T were A+ members shouldn't interfere. At all. 

 

But I still don't see, why you'd exclude all A+ members from a broader gender, romance and sexuality diverse group. This is honestly why I hate this letter salad so very much. If we had one word for it all, nobody would bat an eye. If we called ourselves the "Potatoe sack squad", everyone could still have there spaces, but we would also have a broader Community that unities us, no matter out identity, that just helps each other instead of searching for reasons to exclude.

[morallygayro]

8 minutes ago, Jade said:

 

Look. This is personal for me. I'm upset, because you were one of the people arguing in the Pulse Shooting thread (although in that thread I agreed with you almost 100%, it was not the right place to argue) and now it's locked, taking away a place for me to express my grief. 

no. The Pulse shooting thread was locked because cis aroaces selfishly insisted on making a massacre of LGBT people about them, I fought back, and then a non LGBT mod abused his power by locking the thread because he was uncomfortable with LGBT people being angry about homophobia or having one fucking thing to ourselves on his precious site.

[Dodgypotato]

7 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

no. The Pulse shooting thread was locked because cis aroaces selfishly insisted on making a massacre of LGBT people about them, I fought back, and then a non LGBT mod locked the thread because he was uncomfortable with LGBT people being angry about homophobia or having one fucking thing to ourselves on his precious site.

I believe you misunderstood their intentions. They were not trying to make it about them, they were expressing their grief. You don't have to be LGBT to be sad over the deaths of LGBT people, just as you don't have to be from the US to be sad about US deaths. It's as much America's problem as it is a problem of LGBT hate.

 

And that was the admin/creator of the forums. It is technically his website. He locked it because things were getting out of hand.

[Rising Sun]

Except that you're creating imaginary conclusions, because no one actually did that. All that people did was saying that allies have the right to post messages of support for the victims.

[morallygayro]

11 minutes ago, Jade said:

TW: suicide, guilt-tripping, various sexuality-phobias, scrupulosity, angry tone, self-harm. This is very much a vent post for me, and it is extremely triggering. Please be careful and take care of yourself.

 

 

 

especially if they're taking up the line at a suicide hotline? a bed in a youth shelter?

 

Are you actually saying that, if aros/aces are suicidal because of their sexuality or if they have been thrown out by their parents because of their sexuality, that they deserve to just die rather than get help?

 

And don't tell me that this never happens, because it does. I know people who have become suicidal over being aro/ace; I've seen stories online from people whose parents threw them out for being aro/ace, because it's not straight. These are the most vulnerable members of the community--the mentally ill and those with abusive parents--and you're saying that especially they should die?

No, I'm not saying that and you can stop with this strawman fallacy now. Especially considering that I'm a mentally ill abuse survivor myself, I've also self-harmed and been suicidal, and I really don't need the gaslighting. There should be resources for aros and aces separate from LGBT (and it's not LGBT people's fault that there aren't), and there are already resources for mentally ill people and abuse survivors. Why can't abused and mentally ill aces and aros who aren't LGBT use those?

[Kojote]

12 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

no. The Pulse shooting thread was locked because cis aroaces selfishly insisted on making a massacre of LGBT people about them, I fought back, and then a non LGBT mod abused his power by locking the thread because he was uncomfortable with LGBT people being angry about homophobia or having one fucking thing to ourselves on his precious site.

 

No! I'm pretty sure it was closed because you couldn't let it go. You were warned multiple times, but you focused entirely on the few people who said something about the LGBT issue, while completely ignoring all comments from people such as Jade! I agreed with you, too, back than, but you seemed to preoccupied in shouting at the A+ people instead of letting it go and reaction to the LGBT people who did comment.

[morallygayro]

18 minutes ago, Jade said:

 

Also, in terms of scholarship money--non-LGBT people take LGBT scholarship money all the time. They're called straight allies. While some of them may be closeted people using "straight ally" as a shield, not all of them will be, and to quote you: "even 1 non LGBT person using LGBT spaces is 1 person too many". Interestingly, the best way to prevent this (changing "ally" to "asexual/aromantic") is also opposed by you.

Cishet allies shouldn't be using LGBT resources either. Nice ad hominem, by the way.

21 minutes ago, Jade said:

 What about the person who gets suicidal due to questioning their gender and had to call a suicide hotline but then later realized they're cis? Did they "not deserve" it, since they're non-LGBT (not lesbian, gay, bi, or trans; not sga or mga or non-binary) and they used an LGBT space, even though they were questioning at the time?

Of course people questioning if they're LGBT can use LGBT resources. People who are confident that they're not LGBT can't.

[Jade]

The point of my addition was that it doesn't matter why, exactly, it was locked, or who I agreed with on it. It was to acknowledge that the post I made was irrational, and that I got upset at everyone who was being angry/arguing in the Pulse thread. And I did acknowledge multiple times in my post that it is an irrational post, it is an emotional post, it is uncharitable, it is cruel, it is unfair, it is a vent post I made so that I don't have a panic attack. In the aftermath of Pulse, we are all hurting, and I apologize if I hurt you further.

 

However: please don't use the word gaslighting in a fucking internet argument. People can't gaslight you if they don't have a relationship with you and if you don't rely on them for your sense of reality. It's not a trivial "someone that I don't know said something on the internet that was incorrect/strawmanning/whatevetrthefuck" thing, it's an abuse tactic. I am a 15-year-old who got in an internet fight with you; I am pretty sure I am not abusing you, and if I am, please please add me to your "ignored users" list/avoid me/quit the forum/call me out on abuse instead of just throwing the word "gaslighting" at me.

 

Look, I can't rationally debate this. I made my post, and I'm done now. I'm sorry for upsetting and potentially triggering you. I'll be adding you to my ignored users list, and I would like it if you stopped following me on here, so I can avoid this topic in the future, as I have shown that I cannot argue this without getting too upset to be reasonable or kind. Goodbye.

[morallygayro]

35 minutes ago, Rising Sun said:

 

Nothing of it, in that specific case. When it happened, asexuality was reduced to Kinsey's group X, and aromanticism was totally unknown. Really, the events I'm referring to had nothing to do with simple erasure that is often mentioned on Internet forums. They were more about "you're not straight, so you're a f*ing weirdo and a pervert, and we'll make you pay for that". 

Against aroaces? Okay, that's valid. They're not straight and I've never said they were. Against aros or aces who were gay or bi or trans or nonbinary? More likely based on homophobia, biphobia, or transphobia.

 

And did an ace man say he wasn't interested in sex with women? Did an aro woman say she wasn't interested in dating men?

 

Have you ever considered that they may have been mistaken for gay, especially if they're gender nonconforming or have a same gender QP partner or they're dating a trans person?

 

People assume I'm a lesbian because I've never had a boyfriend, have no interest in men, spend most of my time alone or with other women, have mostly LGBT friends, and am gender nonconforming. I've been harassed, physically threatened, and followed home from school because of that.

 

As it happens, I actually am a lesbian. But if I weren't, that lesbophobia would be misdirected and I would have no right to speak over actual lesbians about it, because it wouldn't have been violence meant for me.

26 minutes ago, Rising Sun said:

Except that you're creating imaginary conclusions, because no one actually did that. All that people did was saying that allies have the right to post messages of support for the victims.

Okay, but they weren't doing that. They were derailing the thread and taking away a safe space. 

[owl]

Some posts in here are getting a bit emotional and aggressive, so I'd encourage people to take a step back, think about what your posting and if it's appropriate. There's some very interesting discussions in here and I personally do not want to have to lock this. The majority of posts are still fine, but a couple are starting to get a bit out of line.

 

35 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

no. The Pulse shooting thread was locked because cis aroaces selfishly insisted on making a massacre of LGBT people about them, I fought back, and then a non LGBT mod abused his power by locking the thread because he was uncomfortable with LGBT people being angry about homophobia or having one fucking thing to ourselves on his precious site.

 

If you have an issue with a moderator (/admin, in this case) I'd recommend you take it up with them personally (if you haven't already) and not post about it here. You're free to discuss it with any member of the moderator team too, if you'd prefer that.

[Vega]

Jade, as a person who was suicidal and self-hateful(whatever the word is) in part due to my aromanticism, all I can say is I agree with you.

Hell, the amount of people who don't even know they're aroace because most of the world knows nothing about us is massive.

 

The thing is, people won't call LGBT hotlines if they don't think they're LGBT. But as an aroace person is not cishet, they have every right to call a LGBT+ suicide hotline. And as Jade I think pointed out, a normal suicide hotline is not equipped to deal with LGBT+ issues. I've had actual therapists who seemed more interested in "curing" my asexuality than in actually treating my mental issues. So certainly places for the wider cishet world are not always prepared to deal with aroace issues.

 

Also, " Second, the LGBT community is not a fun acceptance club. It's a human rights coalition..."
yeah, about that. Sometimes all a person needs is to have a safe space with people like them, who understand them and accept them. Being aroace can be an incredibly isolating experience. Many people have never met another person of their own sexual & romantic orientation, I know I've not.

And there's nothing that says you can't have both an "acceptance club" and a human rights coalition at once.

[morallygayro]

6 minutes ago, Simowl said:

Some posts in here are getting a bit emotional and aggressive, so I'd encourage people to take a step back, think about what your posting and if it's appropriate. There's some very interesting discussions in here and I personally do not want to have to lock this. The majority of posts are still fine, but a couple are starting to get a bit out of line.

 

 

If you have an issue with a moderator (/admin, in this case) I'd recommend you take it up with them personally (if you haven't already) and not post about it here. You're free to discuss it with any member of the moderator team too, if you'd prefer that.

It seems like I already am, since you're here, and I learned quickly that @Blue Phoenix Ace is perfectly fine with abusing his power as a mod and ignoring the needs of members more marginalized than he is. One of the first times I ever reported a comment for homophobia, I explained very clearly why it was homophobic. His response was "No it's not, I'm deleting the report." That should tell you something about how qualified or capable he is as a mod when any discussion gets heated and he feels uncomfortable about it. If I or any other member who has a problem with him has the nerve to tell him about it, we're at risk of being banned from this site. You're not. The other mods aren't.

[Rising Sun]

5 minutes ago, morallygayro said:

Against aroaces? Okay, that's valid. They're not straight and I've never said they were. Against aros or aces who were gay or bi or trans or nonbinary? More likely based on homophobia, biphobia, or transphobia.

 

And did an ace man say he wasn't interested in sex with women? Did an aro woman say she wasn't interested in sex with men?

 

Have you ever considered that they may have been mistaken for gay, especially if they're gender nonconforming or have a same gender QP partner or they're dating a trans person?

 

People assume I'm a lesbian because I've never had a boyfriend, have no interest in men, spend most of my time alone or with other women, have mostly LGBT friends, and am gender nonconforming. I've been harassed, physically threatened, and followed home from school because of that.

 

As it happens, I actually am a lesbian. But if I weren't, that lesbophobia would be misdirected and I would have no right to speak over actual lesbians about it, because it wouldn't have been violence meant for me.

 

Violence is always directed at a person, and do you realize how incredibly violent it is if you get the right to group support denied ? No one should have the right for support and protection denied because X or Y. Everyone has the right for support and protection if they're a victim whatever the reason, and there is nothing to discuss. There is no "why" or "how", and questioning what happened and why has no place there because the victim needs sympathy, not an ideological analysis. It just happened, that's all you need to know, and denying unconditional support and protection in a group is like saying "f* you" to a victim, and one of the most cruel things that can ever be done to a human being. You do need to realize that there is a point beyond which questioning and analysis get inappropriate for a person, and especially for a victim of severe violence who needs immediate help.

[Louis On Air]

My last post here before this thread gets locked (oh well pages one and two had good discussion).

1. Yes, oppression=/=prejudice, but I don't no whether or not some countries oppress this, and neither do you.

2. There isn't a separate community sadly, and what are LGBT resources anyway and why does a tiny tiny group of people make them run out?

3. In the other thread, I mainly stated my reaction to the event and what could be done about it and how others may react. I only said that aromantics and Asexuals are (I'll admit I should have said 'can be') LGBT and get that support. I didn't say anything else on the matter or claim the event as an attack on me.

 

What ever happened to this thread? If it wasn't so close to lockdown I'd suggest we go back to discussing what LGBT means and why it's important to some to be a part of it. I respect everyone's opinion but don't act like you're not getting shouty and insistent if you're getting shouty and insistent.

K bye now

 

P.S. I have no problem whatsoever with @Blue Phoenix Ace's decisions or any admod's decisions.

[morallygayro]

Just now, Rising Sun said:

 

Violence is always directed at a person, and do you realize how incredibly violent it is if you get the right to group support denied ? No one should have the right for support and protection denied because X or Y. Everyone has the right for support and protection if they're a victim whatever the reason, and there is nothing to discuss. There is no "why" or "how", and questioning what happened and why has no place there because the victim needs sympathy, not an ideological analysis. It just happened, that's all you need to know, and denying unconditional support and protection in a group is like saying "f* you" to a victim, and one of the most cruel things that can ever be done to a human being. You do need to realize that there is a point beyond which questioning and analysis get inappropriate for a person, and especially for a victim of severe violence who needs immediate help.

By that logic, a straight cis person should be allowed to access LGBT resources if they're mistaken for gay.

 

But they shouldn't - no matter what happened to them as a result. They should get help, but they're not entitled to the labor of a marginalized community with limited resources that they have privilege over, especially when many members of that community have gone through something just as bad or worse.