Jump to content
Louis Hypo

What counts as LGBT

Recommended Posts

So things are getting heated in another thread, and I thought 'if you want something done, just do it,' so let's make structured argument and debate here please, no petty bickering. Also if any moderator thinks this thread needs locking, don't not do it.

 

So firstly, maybe LGBT+ would be a better term or LGBPTUA or MOGII. Either way with these ones, asexuality and aromanticism make it in. Basically anyone who isn't cisgender, heteroromantic or heterosexual should count. I understand focus on same-sex love in some topics but maybe say same-sex love issue and not LGBT issue if you want to put aro/ace behind the wall (especially here). Same applies to a transgender issue (and that's a commonly used term)

 

I respect people's right to opinion so if you disagree with anything I've said, good.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally use the acronym LGBTQ+ with the "Q+" there as a catch-all  to cover anyone else that isn't cisgender and straight.  I know that some asexual or aromantic people don't really feel any connection to LGBTQ+, and that's fine, but I think that aro/ace people should be welcomed into LGBTQ+ spaces as a marginalized orientation for those that do.  Although I'm not currently active in any LGBTQ+ organizations, I do consider myself LGBTQ+.

  • Like 17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's everyone's personal decision whether to affiliate themselves with the LGBTIQ+ (or whatever letters) community or not. I don't, but it doesn't mean that fellow aro aces can't.

 

 

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This content of this thread seems kind of similar to what happened here - so, I think we'll definitely be keeping a closer eye on this thread.

 

I'd recommend double checking our ToS but specifically - no personal insults against users, nothing hateful. I understand some people are going to have strong opinions about this and that's fine but do not go out attacking other people. If you're unsure if something would be tolerated, it's probably best not to post it but you can check with a moderator. And if you're unsure if something is breaking the rules, you can report it to be on the safe side so we can discuss it, or PM a moderator if one's online 

Everyone's opinions are welcome here, no matter how much you may disagree with them.

 

___

 

My personal opinion on this kinda varies, and I'm kinda in the middle. I think if someone specifies LGBT (without +/Q/A etc) then generally they're not including asexuals and aromantics, but otherwise it depends. Some LGBT+ communities are happy to welcome in aro/ace people, others aren't. I don't think we can say (if you're ace and/or aro) we're inherently part of LGBT+ groups because many people say we face different issues.

If a group (e.g a school LGBT+ club) was happy welcoming ace/aros, fine, but if another community (e.g online forums) didn't welcome us, I don't think it's an issue.

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, aroMa(n)tisse said:

It's everyone's personal decision whether to affiliate themselves with the LGBT+ community or not. I don't, but it doesn't mean that fellow aro aces can't.

 

 

Yes, I saw that idea a while ago and I agree because one of my 'essential freedoms' (I couldn't think of a better name) is to not constrict or enforce community or belief.

 

 

@Simowl when I said any moderator I meant you in particular but yeah, I made this to save the other thread.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people view LGBT+ as the 'gay community'... Plus trans... Plus intersex... Etc. Apparently aces and aros just came too late to the party. It seems to be innately tied to the argument of whether or not aces and aros should be viewed as 'straight' on their own.

 

None of the above debates will ever be resolved. Never. Because so many people have such differing and strong views on this matter. No side will ever come to terms with the other. I think we are coming at this from the wrong angle.

 

In my ever so humble opinion, it should be viewed as the community of minority sexual and gender identities, as well as intersex people.

 

We shouldn't be fighting about this. We all get enough shit from the outside. It's hurting us too much for the minorities to be fighting amongst themselves. No, we didn't face the same discrimination as gay and trans people have over the years. But why should that mean that we can't band together to fight discrimination as it stands today?

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use LGBT+ at least to really REALLY capture the letter salad of terror and confusion, that includes the A für Aros and Aces. 

 

I assume the other thread you mentioned was the one about the shooting, in which case I don't understand the confusion about the label. The OP of said thread specifically said LGBT and further clarified that they specifically meant the L + G + B + T part of said acronym and not the rest of the letters. Now you can disagree with this, but in no way does it imply, that the A in LBGTQIA should be denied, but rather that Q, I and A were just not specifically addressed as this is not specifically their issue. They are still part of this horrible complicated acronym, though and I don't actually see that the OP denied that (Might be wrong though, just didn't get the impression). 

 

Now whether you WANT to be under the umbrella is a personal matter, but I've never seen anyone who really honestly believes that the "A" is für "ally" (at least no one who knows about aces and aros as a thing). 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the LGBT+ community is often the only non-cishet space around. Of course, all communities can say who is allowed into their specific community but I do include everyone who isn't cishet in the LGBT+ umbrella. And many of us don't even know any other aro/ace people let alone have access to a community specifically for aros or aces.

And of course not everyone in the LGBT+ community faces the same issues. I'd say a straight trans person faces very different issues from a cis gay person. I see a need for subgroups (gay/lesbian/trans/and so on) but everyone is united under the same LGBTQ+ umbrella.

I don't agree with the "aces/aros don't belong in LGBTQ+ because they pass as straight" because a cis bisexual person in a monogamous, heterosexual relationship passes as straight just as much as a single aro/ace person.

 

I also think the LGBTQ+ community is so large that we'll never reach a consensus. What's most important is that we work together to end homo-/bi-/a-/trans-/etc-phobia instead of shoving out people who don't fit a certain mold.

  • Like 13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Label-policing is something that I believe is more destructive than constructive. Since labels are inherently personal, I believe each person should decide which labels they want to use. Aces and aros to decide for themselves whether or not they feel like their identity fits within the LGBT(Q)+ spectrum.

 

As a trans person, I've heard similar arguments on whether non-binary people, drag kings/queens, or crossdressers fit under the transgender umbrella...and I say it's really up to them. If they feel like "trans" is an identity that describes them, then they're allowed to say they are trans. I am not going to come and tell them that their feelings are invalid, or that I know their own feelings better than they do.  

  • Like 16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Experience shapes how we are right now, and I guess I feel associated with LGBT+ because of how 'not-straight' I feel. I don't feel gay at all either, but it's easier to tell people it's LGBT because then no one even has the chance to say 'so you're straight?'

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, omitef said:

Label-policing is something that I believe is more destructive than constructive.

I agree with this point very much.  I think in general there's too much arguing about who does or doesn't belong within specific groups, when it would be more helpful to let people decide for themselves where they feel they belong.  

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to say, I really don't like the letter salad anyway. It's unfit to represent everyone who deviates from romantic, sexual or gender norms and has to get constant updates anyway and it often leads to debates about semantics and specific meanings for specific letters which is just.... really silly.... and not the point at all...
 

I once thought queer was an all inclusive umbrella term, until I found out that that word, too, is full of debates about semantics and appropriations, so I just gave up on finding an appropriate "umbrella" and started looking at people as individuals with different experiences, convictions and identities. Ironically, that seems to make things way easier to navigate than an umbrella term xD To me, on a personal level at least.
 
But I do get the appeal of it. And I think nobody should be denied based on their identity as long as they behave descendly. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, deltaX said:

I agree with this point very much.  I think in general there's too much arguing about who does or doesn't belong within specific groups, when it would be more helpful to let people decide for themselves where they feel they belong.  

(Why can't I also quote the post Delta quoted?)

I agree so  much as well. As long as someone isn't clearly misusing the label* they should have a right to identify with what they feel is correct for them.

 

*ex. mistaking asexuality for celibacy

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the one hand, there is a common culture based on historical persecution that justifies the existence of LGBT in particular. On the other hand, all sexual, romantic, gender minorities undergo various kinds of prejudice and other problems, and IMO division means making the whole community weaker ; and everyone should have the possibility to feel included, even things that are very rarely (and unfairly IMO) included, and undergo a huge lot of prejudice, such as polyamory. Plus, prejudice, inequality and hatred are not equal towards a whole minority, there are always very big individual differences, and that alone justifies that not everyone wants to be a part of a community. One more argument in favour of unity, and the best way to create unity is with a more inclusive name, so everyone who wants to join can join and people who don't want to are free to not join. 

I'm not a fan of whole alphabets, and not really a fan of MOGAI either (because I see gremlins in my mind every time I hear the word), I like GSRM better. I think there isn't a better way to make something inclusive.

After, I don't have any strong opinions on the topic (because I'm not an activist, so it's just my personal opinions I made with time, and I'm quite open to discussing my beliefs), other than if someone has personally experienced prejudice for what they are related to gender, sexual or romantic minorities, especially if they got harassed, bullied, assaulted or got rights denied, they should always be welcome to join, whatever their orientation is (as long as it isn't based on something illegal, of course). Otherwise that would mean that they aren't recognized as victims, and that's not OK ; they always should have the right to support and protection in a group, whether it's to fight for their rights or simply for new friends and supportive hugs (because even just that can mean a lot to someone). It's the only strong opinion I have, based on the need for unity and mutual empathy.

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Vega said:

(Why can't I also quote the post Delta quoted?)

 

Nested quotes are disabled on this board, so you have to use the '+' ('Multiquote') button to the left of the 'Quote' one or quote posts one by one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, aroMa(n)tisse said:

 

Nested quotes are disabled on this board, so you have to use the '+' ('Multiquote') button to the left of the 'Quote' one or quote posts one by one.

Ah OK, thanks!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Due to the nature of this thread being centred around LGBT rather than aromanticism, it has been moved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Rising Sun said:

On the one hand, there is a common culture based on historical persecution that justifies the existence of LGBT in particular. On the other hand, all sexual, romantic, gender minorities undergo various kinds of prejudice and other problems, and IMO division means making the whole community weaker ; and everyone should have the possibility to feel included, even things that are very rarely (and unfairly IMO) included, and undergo a huge lot of prejudice, such as polyamory. Plus, prejudice, inequality and hatred are not equal towards a whole minority, there are always very big individual differences, and that alone justifies that not everyone wants to be a part of a community.

Yeah I agree with the idea of having a large community. I have by far not gotten it as bad as some, but my parents didn't take asexuality as a reality when I told them I was ace (and I didn't even try for aro) and yet if I had a gf or a bf, if we kissed and dated and all that, if we lost our virginities on my 16th birthday, they'd be fine because I'm a responsible person but don't cry for me, just know that there has been one large negative impact and lets all have the freedom to join these communities or not.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Louis Hypo said:

I have by far not gotten it as bad as some, but my parents didn't take asexuality as a reality when I told them I was ace (and I didn't even try for aro) and yet if I had a gf or a bf, if we kissed and dated and all that, if we lost our virginities on my 16th birthday, they'd be fine because I'm a responsible person but don't cry for me, just lets all have the freedom to join these communities or not.

 

I feel like I have also gotten it easy (in comparison to other kids who get kicked out or abused by their parents for being not cis and not straight). I think my parents have just gotten progressively "whatever" about me coming out as anything. Like if I start coming out about something they'll be like "Oh what now"

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a slightly different note: I think you should be careful not to mislabel yourself for convenience, though.

If you're the A and only the A in LGBTQIA you should probably make that clear. If you just say "LGBT" people will probably assume you to be one of the four and that's just plain confusing. If you're uncomfortable with giving away your identity, you can still go for the "definitely not straight"-answer. Which is what I did for a few weeks before just saying "pretty darn aro, sexuality still loading, but girls are way more beautiful don't you agree?". 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tal Shi'ar said:

Due to the nature of this thread being centred around LGBT rather than aromanticism, it has been moved.

 

LGBT-related discussions are not so 'off-topic' (especially to those whom they really concern), so let's discuss a revamp of the lineup of the forums.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kojote said:

On a slightly different note: I think you should be careful not to mislabel yourself for convenience, though.

If you're the A and only the A in LGBTQIA you should probably make that clear. If you just say "LGBT" people will probably assume you to be one of the four and that's just plain confusing. If you're uncomfortable with giving away your identity, you can still go for the "definitely not straight"-answer. Which is what I did for a few weeks before just saying "pretty darn aro, sexuality still loading, but girls are way more beautiful". 

That's definitely true. Though I do think that often, if you say you're not straight the majority of people will just assume you're gay.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Louis Hypo : Yes, and this leads to one more argument in favour of a big group : as the aromantic community isn't united or really recognized by a bigger community, and worse because it's so new, that shows the bad consequences of no older members, who can show that being aromantic isn't just a phase. In a larger, more organized community, there are members of all ages, with older members guiding the younger members and sharing their experiences, giving a lot of precious information to families and friends.

This is an absolutely necessary stage to reach, being integrated in a larger and more organized community, with members of all ages who can share their experience and show that no, being aromantic doesn't mean being too young to have found your prince / princess charming. (That's what the asexual community is lacking as well, btw) No larger and organized community = a handful of younger members who are completely on their own and defenseless. And that can't work.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, aroMa(n)tisse said:

LGBT-related discussions are not so 'off-topic' (especially to those whom they really concern), so let's discuss a revamp of the lineup of the forums.

As the thread creator, I was waiting for someone else to say that; it's not like like we're reviewing the new studio ghibli film!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Vega How about saying at the very beginning that you're neither straight nor gay and explaining why this is possible?

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...