Aro Sexual Orientation

[Mark]

Something which rarely seems to be considered is how sexual orientation affects the experience of aromanticism.
Do aro allos and aro aces experience being aromantic differently?
If this is the case does it also matter if aros are heterosexual,  homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc? (Often intersectional analyses treat can treat characteristics as binaries. Even when they are clearly more varied.)
Ditto for greysexual, demisexual or quoisexual aros.

[Jot-Aro Kujo]

I would say it definitely affects the experience of aromanticism differently, or at least the experience of the aromantic community. I've noticed that allosexual aros, myself included, tend to have a more prolonged questioning period than most aroaces even after exposure to LGBTQ+ communities, because aromanticism isn't often talked about outside of asexuality. Aromanticism is still thought to go hand-in-hand with asexuality in many ways, and aro resources communities, or pride-related things are often included as a part of ace things, which can feel isolating to allo aros. (One example I recently saw: A Picrew, aka doll maker, that included pride pins. Some were combos, and although there was a combo pin with the aro and ace flags, there were no combos for the aro flag with any sexual orientation other than ace, which made me feel very left out and like I had to "choose" between my aromanticism and my bisexuality when aroaces did not. Even if it's something as trivial as a dollmaker, little things like this can really add up.)

The prejudices we deal with from outside are different, too. Aroaces are more likely to be thought of as being naive, child-like, "innocent", or completely detached from all emotion, while allo aros are more likely to be thought of as predatory, perverted, manipulative, slutty, or just making excuses in order to use others- Even by people who might have no awareness of someone's sexual history, or if they even HAVE a sexual history at all.

[LBMango]

What Jot-Aro said. Plus since I'm not ace, it took longer for me to realize that I wasn't "normal"... I knew I was heterosexual, and that's the term that most people think about, so it sort of got left at that, and I assumed that the things that I didn't experience weren't actually there, and were just invented for fiction, exaggerated, etc. 

I would imagine (projecting here) that it's harder for an aro-ace to not notice that they aren't allo... 

I'm less sure how aroness interacts with other non-a-sexualities... 

[TripleA]

My story is a more muddled up, bc I used to be female, so I used to be a Homosexual Aromantic. 

 

For me, finding what sexuality I was was still difficult for me; it came with a lot of denial, confusion and internalised homophobia. I thought I was asexual due to not experiencing sexual attraction until age 15, and when I experienced it towards women, I basically just left it there. I didn't know being aro or not being both heterosexual and heteroromantic was a thing, and just assumed I was also homoromantic because people usually experience sexual and romantic attraction together, or their romantic and sexual orientations match up nicely. However, that isn't the case most likely, and questioning my romantic orientation has been quite hard. And questioning my gender on top of that also takes a toll on me. I'm also Autistic, so understanding romance is quite hard for me. Basically, I didn't know that romance was more than just the fluff in movies or books, and I always saw sex as the no.1 priority. 

[nonmerci]

And let's not forget aros who doesn't have a sexual orientation. In particular because I think one of the difference with aroallos and aroaces, is that aros without sexual attraction are always forgotten

 

Personally I think that our experiences share a lot in common (because of amatonormativity, denial of our experience, wanting to see other kind of relationships being valued too, and a other things I probably forgot). But of course there are also differences. As being mentionned, the experience of realizing we are aro are different. Allo aro are tend more to think they are romantic because SAM is not well-known, and it is easy to confuse sexual and romantic attraction (in particular as society itself does it, in movies or in real life, with the expectation that a sexual relationship will turn into love). I also think that it is easier to feel broken like this, because sexual attraction can leader people to dating as they think they are romantically attracted, and then to be shame for not being able to fall in love (society reaching that sex is mission something without romantic love).

On the other had,  I can't speak for other aro aces, but before I learned what was asexuality and aromanticism, I had a hard time trying to determine my orientation. I also confused the two : I tried to determine if I was straight, homo or bi by watching sexually attractive image... you'd notice that the possibility of an absence of attraction didn't cross my mind. Until I met the word asexuality and decided to check what it was; then I accept pretty quickly I was asexual (it was an evidence, on particular as I had a long history of denial that sexual attraction as show on tv actually exist, contrary to romantic attraction), and had to think about it for romantic attraction. I didn't feel shamed or broken because as I wasn't attracted to people, I was just expecting to feel it one day in the future. Accepting aromanticism was just accepting that this was not going to happen. Also, I think being asexual was easier to find ressources about aromanticism, because the word asexual is similar to heterosexual, bisexual etc; so having sexual attraction aligned with romantic attraction simplify things.

I don't know for aro without a sexual attraction.

 

Another thing is that allo aro may want more sexual contact (I said may because of course you can be asexual and still like sex; but the experience is different). Now, sexual relationship without romance is seen as negative. This problem will touch more aro allo. On the other hand,  aro aces can be seen as autistic because they feel no sexual attraction (I mean, disinterest for sex is part of the diagnostic; which his harmful for both autistic and aro aces as you can be autistic and feel sexual attraction, and be ace without being autistic... not that there is everything wrong for being autistic of course). Aro aces can also be seen as immature, aka how Sheldon Cooper is seen by the other characters of BBT for instance.

All this to say that desire feeling or not feeling sexual attraction will change how people perceive you, and not in a good way.

 

Finally,  I think the way we feel about aro and aces community is affected too. I think we all feel affected by the amatonormativity in the ace community. But also, aro allo can be alienated by the ace community and the necessity for it to be "ace... and aro"; because it is hard to see how they fit in a community that is primarily asexual, and sometimes even shame sexual activity. Aro ace are more concerned by the all "asexual can still love" thing, because even if this is something we have to teach, aro aces are pushing away by this kind of statements, as if our existence was something to hide, a shame that will destroyer all their argumentation.

For aro communities, aro allos and aros without a sexual attraction are probably more impacted by how aromanticism is sometimes seen as a sub-category of asexuality. For aro aces, I know that I feel sometimes alienated by the (understandable) suspicion that aro aroallos can have towards aroaces (aka the suspicion that they will care more about their ace side than their aro side, which is probably linked to a history of aromanticism being treated as a less important category of asexuality). That leads that I sometimes feel shamed for being ace in aro community too.  So, I'd say that all type of aros are feeling not at easy in both communities, but for different reasons.

 

 

That being said, I think we have mire in common than differences, and that's why I see us as a more solid community than the ace community, where the position towards romance create more differences I think (because of "asexual can still love" and a lot of topics about asexual romance; which is not a bad thing in itself as romantic asexualq need asexual place to express this big part of their life, but create the feeling that aroaces are not part of all that).

 

 

[sennkestra]

Honestly, one of the things I'm curious about that doesn't get talked about so much is the difference in experience not between just ace and non-ace aros (which already gets talked about a ton), but the differences in the experiences of different group of allosexual aros - especially between those who lie on the more queer/LGB+ end of the spectrum vs. those who consider themselves more straight. (and that's not even getting into the complications of gender and trans identities).

While I can't speak directly to either of those experiences as an aro ace (we have our own set of confusing issues), I've noticed that outside the bubble of certain ace and aro online community spaces, most people in the wider world often don't care that much about the intricacies of what kinds of attraction I feel or what specific labels I use....but they often do care a lot of about more visible behaviors, like who I date (or rather, don't date), who I hook up with (or my case, who I don't hook up with), etc. 

I'd imagine that being a queer-identified allosexual aro - especially one who might have visible same-sex relationships (whether sexual,  queerplatonic, or otherwise) or talk about their same-sex attractions - would have to deal with a double-whammy of overt homophobia/heterosexism on top of all the regular anti-aro sentiments; and for those involved with broader queer or LGBT+ communities there's also a unique set of politics to navigate there that are different from the issues encountered in more mainstream [straight] society - for better or for worse.

And I'd imagine that for more straight-aligned allosexual aros, while they might not have to deal with as much direct homophobia, they might still have to deal with the more indirect effects of homophobia/heterosexism as a result of not fitting into the "right kind" of straight behavior, and may have difficulty finding access to offline spaces to really explore their sexuality in more complex ways (because while some queer/LGBTQIA+ communities may in theory be friendly and accepting straight-aligned aces and aros, they often just aren't really built for or experienced in giving the kind of support those groups might need...and there's not many equivalents for straight or straight-ish people).

For anyone who does identify as either of those groups, I'd be curious to hear more about your perspectives on the issue.

 

[NullVector]

56 minutes ago, sennkestra said:

For anyone who does identify as either of those groups, I'd be curious to hear more about your perspectives on the issue

Well, I'm 'straight', in the sense of being a man who's sexually attracted to just women, and for me it's basically like you described.

 

56 minutes ago, sennkestra said:

while some queer/LGBTQIA+ communities may in theory be friendly and accepting straight-aligned aces and aros, they often just aren't really built for or experienced in giving the kind of support those groups might need...and there's not many equivalents for straight or straight-ish people

Bingo. I'm basically left feeling like I don't belong anywhere. I'm a heterosexual who doesn't like heterosexual relationship norms, but would feel out of place in queer spaces because of my sexuality. So, too queer for straight relationships and too straight for queer spaces ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[sennkestra]

On 12/19/2019 at 10:44 AM, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

 I've noticed that allosexual aros, myself included, tend to have a more prolonged questioning period than most aroaces even after exposure to LGBTQ+ communities, because aromanticism isn't often talked about outside of asexuality. Aromanticism is still thought to go hand-in-hand with asexuality in many ways, and aro resources communities, or pride-related things are often included as a part of ace things, which can feel isolating to allo aros.

 

On 12/19/2019 at 12:18 PM, LBMango said:

Plus since I'm not ace, it took longer for me to realize that I wasn't "normal"... I knew I was heterosexual, and that's the term that most people think about, so it sort of got left at that, and I assumed that the things that I didn't experience weren't actually there, and were just invented for fiction, exaggerated, etc. 

I would imagine (projecting here) that it's harder for an aro-ace to not notice that they aren't allo... 

 

I would be careful about making assumptions about how easy it is to figure out an aroace identity as well - it's all too easy to assume that the grass must be greener on the other side, but I think we just don't have the data need to really know one way or the other yet (though that might defintiely be an interesting project for future ace and/or aro research projects - we do know that aces as a group are  likely to have their first self-realization somewhat later in life  - I think the median in the last ace census was around 19? but I don't think anyone has looked at how that breaks down by romantic orientation, especially for non-ace aros ) .

While sticking to hypotheticals,  I would agree that it might be easier for an aroace person who has already learned about and joined an asexual community to learn about aromanticism / that that's an option. But the big limiting factor for most asexual (and aro) people is that they don't even know that something other than just gay/straight/bi exists as an option in the first place - which leads to the same exact kinds of denial and explaining away that mango mentioned. (I know I in particular spent many years assuming that all crushes and "ooh, he's so hot" were just other teens my age imitating hollywood teen movies to pretend to be grown up - because surely, no one my age actually cares about any of that, right?) It's pretty impressive what loops the brain can through to try and fit into an existing box, no matter how poor the fit might be.

[LBMango]

Sennkestra, you are, of course, right. One should never assume that anyone has it easier than yourself... that was poor judgement on my part...

[Jot-Aro Kujo]

1 hour ago, sennkestra said:

 

 

I would be careful about making assumptions about how easy it is to figure out an aroace identity as well - it's all too easy to assume that the grass must be greener on the other side, but I think we just don't have the data need to really know one way or the other yet (though that might defintiely be an interesting project for future ace and/or aro research projects - we do know that aces as a group are  likely to have their first self-realization somewhat later in life  - I think the median in the last ace census was around 19? but I don't think anyone has looked at how that breaks down by romantic orientation, especially for non-ace aros ) .

While sticking to hypotheticals,  I would agree that it might be easier for an aroace person who has already learned about and joined an asexual community to learn about aromanticism / that that's an option. But the big limiting factor for most asexual (and aro) people is that they don't even know that something other than just gay/straight/bi exists as an option in the first place - which leads to the same exact kinds of denial and explaining away that mango mentioned. (I know I in particular spent many years assuming that all crushes and "ooh, he's so hot" were just other teens my age imitating hollywood teen movies to pretend to be grown up - because surely, no one my age actually cares about any of that, right?) It's pretty impressive what loops the brain can through to try and fit into an existing box, no matter how poor the fit might be.

 

Sorry, I thought I was more clear about my wording. That's exactly what I meant- Even after being made fully aware of many LGBTQ+ identities, including asexuality, aromanticism, and even demisexuality and demiromanticism, it took me a long time to understand that I was aro because nobody had ever told me you could be aro if you're not ace. I've heard similar stories from other allo aros as well. My point was less "Aroaces figure it out right away" (which is of course completely untrue) and more "If an aroace and an allo aro are both exposed to the same LGBTQ+ resources at the same time before being aware of their own identities, in general it may take longer for the allo aro to understand their orientation than the aroace, because there is a large lack of awareness for allo aro issues".

I absolutely do not think it's easy to figure out that one is aroace, and I didn't mean to imply that it was, so I'm sorry I didn't word that more clearly (I tried to but evidently did not succeed). But from the aros I have spoken to, most allo aros agree that it took them a long time to figure out their orientations even after exposure to certain resources, whereas the aroaces I have spoken to generally very quickly learned they were aro after learning about asexuality. I was surrounded by aroace friends as a teen, but still hated myself and believed myself to be broken because nobody had ever told me that I could be aro too. This is a painfully common experience for allo aros, which is what I was trying to convey.

[aro_elise]

11 hours ago, NullVector said:

So, too queer for straight relationships and too straight for queer spaces ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yup.  i can't exactly relate to either group.  

 

and idk how to like, satisfy both aspects of my orientation.  i suppose that's a split attraction thing.

 

i also imagine we experience aromanticism differently from aro aces.

[BlueKumul]

For aro allos the most important question of aromanticism is:

How can I get laid without having a relationship?

[Mark]

 

On 12/20/2019 at 7:36 PM, sennkestra said:

While I can't speak directly to either of those experiences as an aro ace (we have our own set of confusing issues), I've noticed that outside the bubble of certain ace and aro online community spaces, most people in the wider world often don't care that much about the intricacies of what kinds of attraction I feel or what specific labels I use....but they often do care a lot of about more visible behaviors, like who I date (or rather, don't date), who I hook up with (or my case, who I don't hook up with), etc. 

I think there's a why as much as a who dimension here.
In that aros potentially being interested in dating and hookups for the "wrong" reasons from the allo POV.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 7:36 PM, sennkestra said:

and for those involved with broader queer or LGBT+ communities there's also a unique set of politics to navigate there that are different from the issues encountered in more mainstream [straight] society - for better or for worse.

IME LGBT+ communities can put couples, marriage and amantonormativity as much of a pedestal as mainstream society. It some cases advocating "marriage equality" can look like "matrimanial fanaticism".

Edited October 23, 2020 by Mark

[El011]

i mean aro aces aren't really going to date or anything whereas a lot of aros who aren't ace go on dating apps for hookups and have fwb relationships.

this is of course assuming that all the aros involved are full aro and not gray but tbh going into the many ways to be gray-aro would just be a headache that I don't feel like dealing with right now. besides, speaking as a gray-aro, it's totally reasonable for someone to experience attraction exactly like I do and not identify as aro. I just do it because I find the identity personally useful when it comes to communicating my needs to a sexual partner and making sure they understand and don't take it personally if I'm not romantic or view them as a friend.

As for how it interacts with my bisexuality specifically, I definitely feel less kinship with the rest of the aro community than I would have otherwise because of the homophobia I've experienced within it and because I also just share more common experiences with a bi person who isn't aro than an aro who is straight/het or ace.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Finn

[HotRamen]

As someone who was aroace and now isn’t really as ace as I thought I was they are really different experiences but at the same time it’s hard to tell. Before I just never really thought about sex so it made sense that I was ace and didn’t really take long in the questioning. It didn’t feel like my non attraction was one in the same tho but maybe because I understood the difference between sexual and romantic attraction on a very basic level. But as time went on I guess what I want in an ideal relationship changed and I started really understanding the kinds of things alloaros talk about because I was experiencing the same things. Although as someone who’s grey ace it kinda feels like constant questioning like sometimes I’ll think what if I’m actually allo what I feel right now is definitely something that an ace wouldn’t feel, then sometimes I’ll think maybe I am still somewhere in the ace spectrum. I feel like my experience is different from others because I started out as ace then figured out I was aro 2 years later then realized that I actually do have sexual attraction, most people I’ve heard experiences from had a completely different experience as far as discovery. So it’s kinda hard to generalize because every aro is gonna have a slightly different experience regardless of sexuality or not.

[eatingcroutons]

.

Edited September 1, 2021 by eatingcroutons

[dewy]

I feel like if I were aroace I would've known a lot sooner, because being aroallo wasn't even a possibility in my mind - whenever I heard about aromanticism it was always alongside asexuality. This is why we need to have more awareness on aromanticism.

[merlindfluorite]

I as an out & proud bisexual for a decade before I found out that aromanticism even existed, even after I left school & college, in my queer community, bars etc. people would always say yeah we're absolutely ace inclusive but unless you were questioning asexuality that was sort of it. I found aro through voidpunk, & it instantly made so much sense to me (& explained a fair amount of my relationship history as well) but it came with a bit of guilt, because for a while I felt like I was the stereotypical heartless bi that's seen so much in media.

I'm glad for it now because it helps me be a lot more present in all my relationships, whether platonic or familial or romantic, because I can communicate better about what I can give to a potential partner or friend, & there are less messy breakups when someone inevitably expects more from me. I barely date at all now and I concentrate on building a family through friendships, & I'm happier than I've ever been. I really think everyone should learn about romantic orientation just like we learn about sexual orientation.

[Collie]

As an almost aro almost ace (basically aroace, tbh, just some very very mild inconsistencies), I tend to think being aroallo would be a rather different experience. Society tends to look down on FWB type relationships, or people wanting sexual stuff without wanting romantic commitment.

[aro_elise]

1 hour ago, Reengo said:

I tend to think being aroallo would be a rather different experience. Society tends to look down on FWB type relationships, or people wanting sexual stuff without wanting romantic commitment.

yeah it's kinda wild lol

[Mark]

11 hours ago, Reengo said:

As an almost aro almost ace (basically aroace, tbh, just some very very mild inconsistencies), I tend to think being aroallo would be a rather different experience. Society tends to look down on FWB type relationships, or people wanting sexual stuff without wanting romantic commitment.

There can also be a lot sex negativity within aro (and aspec) spaces.
Other issues include:
Assuming aro ace experiences work as general aro experiences.
Lionisation and/or romanticisation of (queer) platonic relationships. Whilst failing to even mention sexual friendships or FWB type

 

[Karst]

I'm aro/ace, and I figured out the "ace" part before the "aro" part.  It might just have been that the queer pride group at my university had some detailed resources on asexuality.  I've had a couple of crushes in my life, but I've never really felt the desire to have a long-term romantic relationship.  Maybe having one or two fleeting infatuations kept me from realizing that I'm not all that interested in dating or marriage.

For me, being both ace and aro simplifies my life in some ways, but it also sometimes makes me feel that I'm missing out on a vast range of human experiences.  I'm spared from the bad parts of sexual and romantic realtionships, but I'll never experience the good parts.

[raye]

On 12/19/2019 at 6:44 PM, Jot-Aro Kujo said:

while allo aros are more likely to be thought of as predatory, perverted, manipulative, slutty, or just making excuses in order to use others- Even by people who might have no awareness of someone's sexual history, or if they even HAVE a sexual history at all.

This is very true. One of the first times I explained my bisexuality and aromanticism to someone (granted, they were younger than me and didn’t understand much about queer culture) they asked if I was a rapist or a slut. At the time, I laughed because I didn’t know how else to react. 

I also agree with what you said about tending to have a longer questioning period. Realistically, I know I’m almost definitely aromantic, but it’s taken me a lot of time to even think about coming to terms with it and it’s still something I struggle with a lot. And a lot of that, I think, is because it’s roped in with asexuality so much of the time, and that’s made me question my sexuality too, even though I’m fairly certain I’m bi. It’s made me feel like — even though I know this isn’t true — that if I’m aro, no one cares unless I’m ace as well. 

[Jeeperz_]

Being m-spec and aro just kind of perpetuates the idea that all aro people are promiscuous. It's difficult to dispute these types of things without getting into personal detail. It's awful that people think things like that in the first place, but it's even worse that you are almost forced hand to tell people about your sex life to avoid being labled slutty. Even then it seems that no matter what you tell people it's not enough. Not only do you feel pressure to tell people about your sex life, but there's always some part of you that fears it won't be enough no matter what it is because for a lot of people it isn't enough no matter what it is. Of course there are some wonderful people who are fine off that bat, but to anyone who isn't very well informed about aromanticism, it seems like you'll always be running around to prove yourself.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Fanz_0__Fire

[MackerelGray]

Oh, this is a topic near and dear to me! I spent a long time in the aroace community, in my teen years, because I genuinely didn't feel sexual attraction (which was possibly influenced by my gender dysphoria!) - and then, around the time I started questioning my gender as something not-feminine, I started feeling sexually attracted to people. But I didn't feel romantic attraction, and because of that, I felt like my attraction was the "wrong" sort of attraction, like I was objectifying others by thinking they were hot. Which I realize now is kinda nonsensical, but it did make me really scared of my own sexuality for a while - especially coming out after saying I was ace, and that I didn't like sex, and then realizing that I thought people were hot and wanted to do things with them? It scared me a lot. And the way sex was treated in the ace community as a taboo topic didn't help me feel more comfortable - the community that had once been a place of safety for me felt stifling and anxiety-provoking. I don't blame the ace community for my internalized sex negativity and bi antagonism, really, but it's not a space I feel comfortable in anymore.