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morallygayro

Take my survey on aromanticism and asexuality

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Here's the link. It's about whether aros and aces should just separate from LGBT and form a separate community (gay, bi/pan/poly, transgender, and nonbinary aros and aces would be in both communities, and cisgender intersex aros and aces who aren't gay or attracted to multiple genders could choose whether they want to be included in the LGBT community or not). It only has 45 responses so far, so everyone take it, boost it on social media, and show it to everyone you know who is on the aro and/or ace spectrum.

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The results so far are pretty interesting.

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tbh my experiences with homophobia and arophobia are quite similar. the same patterns. the same misguided assumptions. the otherization. the isolation. the stigma. the random hate. the same story, just different slurs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

(Anyway, who came up with The Discussion in the first place? Like usually arophobes start with this argument, then comes the "wtf, you can't be gay and aro, you must choose a side", and then the rest of the hate... Just make it stop already. I'm so tired of it.)

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I have a lot of thoughts about this. But I'm on mobile so I'll try to keep it short.

 

Basically I don't think there's any reason to split the community in terms of not having a place for LGBT+ (including ace and aro) people at all. But I also think it's important for smaller groups to have their own place to talk about things that directly affect them or specific aspects of their identities (eg this forum).

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There can be both a big LGBTQIA community and smaller communities for specific identities. It's not one or the other :P

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The survey made me realize how "indifferent" I am to everything. 9_9

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As I've nearly always identified as hetero one way or another, I myself feel like the LGBT+ community just isn't for me. I personally don't care if anyone else does. The only thing I wouldn't want happen is people assuming I am LGBT, knowing that I am ace and people accepting aces as LGBT.

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15 minutes ago, Tal Shi'ar said:

As I've nearly always identified as hetero one way or another, I myself feel like the LGBT+ community just isn't for me. I personally don't care if anyone else does. The only thing I wouldn't want happen is people assuming I am LGBT, knowing that I am ace and people accepting aces as LGBT.

I totally get this. When I told one of my self identified queer friends that I was aro they said "welcome to the queer community" and I felt super uncomfortable with the label (which I explained).

 

Individuals should be able to choose if they want to be a part of the community, I think that the door does need to be open for aro and ace people though. 

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14 hours ago, DannyFenton123 said:

There can be both a big LGBTQIA community and smaller communities for specific identities. It's not one or the other :P

There is the difficulty that a big diverse "community" may, in practice, be less diverse than the name implies. A group made up primarily of homosexual. homoromantic, cis-gendered people may not be useful to, even welcoming of, people outside that demographic. Both biphobia and transphobia are known problems here.
I wonder also if heteroromantic aces and heterosexual aros would to be lumped with non-hetersexuals too.
There also appear to be issue relating to having a different sexual and romantic orientation in a culture where they are assumed to coincide.
 

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I feel like the "Do you want the aro and ace communities to form a separate community from LGBT?" question kinda excludes the fact that we can have both a smaller aro community, as well as being part of the wider LGBT+ community. 

 

Interesting how must of the answerers are either cis women or nonbinary. 

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2 hours ago, Vega said:

Interesting how must of the answerers are either cis women or nonbinary. 

 

I have seen that part coming. Generally more women identify as aro.

I guess there are more guys who are as well, but they don't seem to use the label as often. I have been part of a couple of aro surveys, all of them have shown similar  results.

Theories why:

  • In western society romance is a feminine coded thing, so if a guy does not like romance, they think they are just manly men
  • They don't even notice because men are less likely to talk about feelings with each other
  • Considering the aro community as part of the LGBTQ or not, admitting they diverge from the straight norm is still stigmatized
  • The no homo (and not ace) is totally a reason
  • Especially considering that they pass as alloromantic
  • Not like anybody has a choice, but who does not want to be cis/het/het? Its just much easier. Safer. Less controversial. People tend to cling on to that stuff, even if it hurts them.
  • I mean I had already accepted myself as as queer, but coming to terms with aromanticism was a lot harder.
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53 minutes ago, Cassiopeia said:

 

I have seen that part coming. Generally more women identify as aro.

I guess there are more guys who are as well, but they don't want to use the label. I have been part of a couple of aro surveys, all of them have shown similar  results.

Theories why:

  • In western society romance is a feminine coded thing, so if a guy does not like romance, they think they are just manly men
  • They don't even notice because men are less likely to talk about feelings with each other
  • Considering the aro community as part of the LGBTQ or not, admitting they diverge from the straight norm is still stigmatized
  • The no homo (and not ace) is totally a reason
  • Especially considering that they pass as alloromantic
  • Not like anybody has a choice, but who does not want to be cis/het/het? Its just much easier. Safer. Less controversial. People tend to cling on tho that stuff, even if it hurts them.
  • I mean I had already accepted myself as as queer, but coming to terms with aromanticism was a lot harder.

I think a big part is that cis guys are less likely to be a part of communities where they would even become aware of the aromantic label (e.g cis guys are hugely underrepresented on sites like tumblr). So its not so much avoiding the label as not even knowing it's an option. 

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I honestly shied away from aromantic labels for a bit, because of the drama about whether ace/aros are actually queer or not, and I am not in a hurry to be seen as that cis het chick trying to invade queer space. I've had enough hate just for being a sexually active woman and non-Christian in the deep south. Buh. 

 

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I read this recently and it was enough to convince me that ace/aro is not queer. Homosexual/aromantic or Homoromantic/asexual is still queer though. Out of respect for the community that had to take this as an insult for many years, who then says "please don't use this word to label yourself", I think we shouldn't use it.

 

https://thethinkingasexual.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/my-updated-stance-on-the-q-slur/

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I don't usually have very strong opinions on things... and I still don't xD

 

I think that ace/aros can identify as part of the LGBT+ if they want to, but I'm not so sure about using the qu**r (not sure if I have to censor it) slur unless they are homo/pan/bi/trans etc. romantic or sexual.

 

Of course, people argue that many heteros would be "intruding on their space" which I think seems kind of silly because most hetero aces/aros don't even want to be a part of the community in the first place. Obviously every group under the umbrella is different and cannot speak for all other groups, so I don't see why it would hurt to include aces/aros if they wanted.

 

On a side note, I notice that cis aromantic aces tend to get left out of the discussion completely and everyone focuses on just the "straight aces/aros" and the "gay, bi, trans, etc. aces/aros." They are in kind of a weird position since they aren't straight, gay, or trans.

 

I'm curious about others' thoughts (I have a very wishy-washy opinion on things) xD

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3 hours ago, Blue Phoenix Ace said:

I read this recently and it was enough to convince me that ace/aro is not queer. Homosexual/aromantic or Homoromantic/asexual is still queer though. Out of respect for the community that had to take this as an insult for many years, who then says "please don't use this word to label yourself", I think we shouldn't use it.

 

https://thethinkingasexual.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/my-updated-stance-on-the-q-slur/

I read that and it definitely changed my mind as well.

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I feel like there's a difference between being LGBT+ and reclaiming q**r...

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57 minutes ago, Spud said:

I feel like there's a difference between being LGBT+ and reclaiming q**r...

Until I read this article, I thought that aros and aces should be considered qu**r because it's used as an umbrella term for "not straight", but I now am not sure. I think there is definitely a difference between being LGBT+ and being qu**r (even though the author of the article doesn't), and I definitely feel that aros and aces, even cis het ones, are LGBT+ (which the author of the article seemed not to?). As several people said above, we can and should form our own community, but it should be as a sub community of the larger LGBT+ community. We're not straight, and I feel like having to be separate from the LGBT+ community could come to close to the "basically straight" arguments and cause problems from non het aros/aces. I feel uncomfortable considering myself part of the "gay community" when that's used to refer to all non straight people, and I guess I also feel that way about qu**r now, but I'm going to try to figure it out. 

 

 

One of the questions on the survey was odd in that there wasn't an option for considering both aromantic and asexual queer.

 

ETA:

I'm re reading the article again, and I have thoughts and concerns about some of it. I don't know if I'm qualified to talk about it, but I would be interested in discussing it. Would it be okay if I made a separate post to talk about?

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To me that article makes some solid points about the word "queer" but doesn't properly touch on aros and aces in the LGBT+ community. Which as Spud says is a different issue altogether.

 

12 minutes ago, PhysicsOwl said:

We're not straight

As a cis het aro I still totally identify as straight. Though I understand that other cis het aros might not.

 

12 minutes ago, PhysicsOwl said:

I'm re reading the article again, and I have thoughts and concerns about some of it. I don't know if I'm qualified to talk about it, but I would be interested in discussing it. Would it be okay if I made a separate post to talk about?

I'm sort if in the same boat about this...

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1 minute ago, PhysicsOwl said:

 I feel uncomfortable considering myself part of the "gay community" when that's used to refer to all non straight people, and I guess I also feel that way about qu**r now, but I'm going to try to figure it out. 

 

Honestly, I think a lot of (alloromantic) bi- and pansexuals also hate the entire LGBT+ community being referred to as the "gay community." 

 

Also, I agree. I'd never say I was a part of the gay community (maybe unless I got a female QP partner) either. I think that term just tends to erase everyone who isn't monosexual/romantic. 

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6 hours ago, Blue Phoenix Ace said:

I read this recently and it was enough to convince me that ace/aro is not queer. Homosexual/aromantic or Homoromantic/asexual is still queer though. Out of respect for the community that had to take this as an insult for many years, who then says "please don't use this word to label yourself", I think we shouldn't use it.

 

https://thethinkingasexual.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/my-updated-stance-on-the-q-slur/

What about trans and nonbinary aro and ace people? Aro bisexuals and biromantic aces (and everyone else under the attracted-to-more-than-one-gender) umbrella)?

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Yikes @ quoting TTA.  Heard she turned twef recently, but even besides that... well, let's just say, she's closed her comment section for a reason.  Considering her attitudes toward non-ace lgbt folk, I'd take what she has to say about queerness with at least a little salt.

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1 hour ago, Saaaro said:
1 hour ago, PhysicsOwl said:

We're not straight

As a cis het aro I still totally identify as straight. Though I understand that other cis het aros might not.

Sorry, I didn't mean to invalidate your identity. I just don't want het aros to have to identify as straight if they don't want to, and I don't like the idea of aro aces being seen as "basically straight". 

 

I also started a separate post about this article if you/anyone want to discuss it more.

10 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Yikes @ quoting TTA.  Heard she turned twef recently, but even besides that... well, let's just say, she's closed her comment section for a reason.  Considering her attitudes toward non-ace lgbt folk, I'd take what she has to say about queerness with at least a little salt.

I didn't see this before I started a new thread to talk about this article. I can take that down if you guys don't think we should be discussing this author. I would like to learn more about some of the ideas/topics they present, so if you have suggestions of better articles, I would be interested in reading them. 

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19 minutes ago, PhysicsOwl said:

I didn't see this before I started a new thread to talk about this article. I can take that down if you guys don't think we should be discussing this author. I would like to learn more about some of the ideas/topics they present, so if you have suggestions of better articles, I would be interested in reading them. 

 

Eh, it's worth discussing, I guess, but I'd be remiss not to point out what kind of stuff she's been known to get up to (I knew her first as outlawroad on tumblr -- maybe that'll ring a bell for some folk).

 

Anyway, this linkspam is kind of old, but if you're interested in the topic, I think it has some good stuff (note I haven't taken the survey linked here because I, like some others linked in that post, am still stuck on what it means to ask the question).

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What is a "twef"? Urban dictionary has failed me. ;)

 

She makes a lot of valid points in the article, but certainly they could be refuted. That's what the new thread can be about.

 

As for Aro/Ace belonging within the LGBT community, I think that's fine. Consider that in an average high school, there won't be enough aros or aces to form any kind of group (if they even know about each other). They need support more so than most adults, and LGBT is the perfect place for them to find it. Even finding local aces as an adult is a challenge, besides going to AVEN meetups (with wildly varying attendance).

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