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Coyote

What can we do besides wordsmith?

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14 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

Some links:

Here is the book, which has always been posted in the Shitposting category, and the description was always that it is a satire (however the author has had to put more warnings of its fictional content because people kept stealing their work and treating it as serious/public property (<which is specifically against the rules of the site))

https://www.wattpad.com/341462536-complete-list-of-genders-the-complete-list-of-all

An issue I see with that list is that omits cis gender definitions and includes non binary gender definitions. 

 

14 hours ago, Apathetic Echidna said:

and those flags are all mixed in with bigender and lesbian and aromantic flags. *sarcasm*and don't you just love a gender that melts given the same attention as the trans flags*sarcasm*

Mixing real, though maybe obscure, things with those which are fictional, satirical, parody, etc is a possible way to set up a poisoning the well type of attack.

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23 hours ago, Scoop said:

 I think I'm simplifying this down a fair amount but its safe to say all our community building is happening online and that’s not bad thing but it is clearly limiting atm

 

So what you're saying is less vocab, more praxis.

Really though, we have a huge lack of meatspaces and its an issue especially for more material matters. I live in the NYC area and on meetup.com I was only able to find one aro group that from what I could tel only had a few members and hadn't really done anything before it got deleted a few months ago. Unfortunately I'm not really sure what we can do to avoid this, since meatspace activism and organizing takes a lot more time, energy, and money than online activism does. I think the best thing we can do for now is try and work aro causes into other LGBTQIA+ orgs- we're probably not going to be able to create a specifically aro org for a while. I know AUREA has just started up, but they're main focus seems to be visibility (Coy's discussed the issues with that here) and it's just a website at this point so that doesn't address the meatspace issue. I wrote a bit more about this issue here- do mind it was more of a rant so it's not edited at all, but it's the general idea that I think is important.

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Yes to a lot of things said in this thread - I'm so tired of having to keep track of a batch of different flags/terms every few weeks because someone decided to take a dictionary definition literally and decided that their experience could not be captured by such simple words 😒 I do think having more irl interaction/community building would be helpful, as it would help in removing oneself from the echochamber that the online community often becomes (especially on sites like Tumblr where certain large blogs get a lot more attention and are often held as representative of the community). I don't have any other answers though, because I'm not interested in telling people how they should/shouldn't identify and I also don't know how to create a vast well of aro-representation that would help people of varying aro experiences feel comfortable in the community. 

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11 hours ago, assignedgothatbirth said:

I think the best thing we can do for now is try and work aro causes into other LGBTQIA+ orgs-

This sounds both effective and doable. Already existing organisations and groups have further reach, resources, and people who care. Honestly this is such a simple answer I'm concerned by how it didn’t occur to me. Maybe I solely need that change of perspective haha, less aro-centric progress and more queer progress with the aro cause sprinkled in. 

Actually my friends and I were going thru the Sims 4 update recently with all its many flags and that was enlightening. We couldn’t name a good third of them despite covering a variety of orientations and genders. This sentiment:

8 hours ago, aro-fae said:

I'm so tired of having to keep track of a batch of different flags/terms every few weeks

doesn’t seem to be so aro specific. At least the keeping track part. People are more often than not concerned by what matters to them and their specific orientation. 

I don’t mean to take this conversation away from aromanticism but the question is what can we do other than wordsmith. Maybe the answer should be as simple as: if you're out, be active in you local queer community and if you're not, contact online queer organisations to engineer some aro inclusion. 

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On 6/19/2019 at 10:37 PM, Apathetic Echidna said:

and those flags are all mixed in with bigender and lesbian and aromantic flags. *sarcasm*and don't you just love a gender that melts given the same attention as the trans flags*sarcasm*

er, im fine with that actually? if gender is a construct than 'weirder' nb identities should be just as valid as the more well-known ones like 'agender'. also....the trans flag gets way more attention than any of the ones you listed because it is far, far more well-known.

 

the biggest problem i have with the plethora of microlabels is how people just coin them and then make a flag and don't do anything else- there's no community or really any discussion about how being that identity affects someone. ive identified with some of these terms in the past! but there's no community for it, so i just kinda forget they even exist. 

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So if more real-world community building is a solution, how can we go about this? What would we be interested in seeing from LGBT+ organizations that would aid in creating a connected, diverse, and visible aromantic community? It's one thing to ask for inclusion but as someone who is involved with an LGBT+ organization, it would be nice if people could offer ideas that can be budgeted and planned for. Awareness Weeks at best involve some posters and flyers. 

Especially as I feel like we're at a point where most of the community knows what aromanticism is, in terms of dictionary definition, but most people don't understand or even discuss the experience, aka "what being aromantic means". And, as we've seen from this topic and the need to create it, communities can't form around overly specific terminology - there needs to be an emotional experience that resonates with the people who identify as such. 

 

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On 6/20/2019 at 9:50 AM, Scoop said:

I feel as tho the aro community is trapped in an echo chamber of sorts.

 

How do you figure? If anything, I'd say there's an opposite problem.

 

On 6/20/2019 at 9:50 AM, Scoop said:

Maybe not agreeing opinions but no matter what platform you're on people do tend to be doing the same things, the same way.

 

On the contrary: about how many new flag designs have come out of Arocalypse?

 

On 6/20/2019 at 9:50 AM, Scoop said:

I think I'm simplifying this down a fair amount but its safe to say all our community building is happening online and that’s not bad thing but it is clearly limiting atm.

 

Sure, but I don't think "the aro community is mostly digital" is why people are feeling alienated over not wanting partnerships or not having sexual orientations, and while expanding in-person could have benefits, that doesn't really address the specific thing I was asking about.

 

4 hours ago, assignedgothatbirth said:

er, im fine with that actually? if gender is a construct than 'weirder' nb identities should be just as valid as the more well-known ones like 'agender'. [...] the biggest problem i have with the plethora of microlabels is how people just coin them and then make a flag and don't do anything else

 

Agreed.

 

50 minutes ago, aro-fae said:

And, as we've seen from this topic and the need to create it, communities can't form around overly specific terminology - there needs to be an emotional experience that resonates with the people who identify as such. 

 

...I think you may have this backwards. Certainly Simon's (ridiculously amatonormative) terminology suggestions (that delineate between more distant friendlike qprs and closer romancelike qprs, wtf) relate back to some real emotional experiences that resonate with people -- otherwise there wouldn't be people thanking him and saying things in the notes like " Aaaa I really like this a lot. ... And this. Actually makes me feel a lot better. Because I felt left out of even the aro community bc I don’t rlly want a QPR at all."

 

My question is: why are people feeling left out in the first place? What's creating this impression of QPRs as some Master Narrative of How To Be Aro? Where is that coming from? Out of all the aromantics in this thread, how many of y'all even have a queerplatonic partner?

 

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18 hours ago, Coyote said:

My question is: why are people feeling left out in the first place? What's creating this impression of QPRs as some Master Narrative of How To Be Aro? Where is that coming from? Out of all the aromantics in this thread, how many of y'all even have a queerplatonic partner?

I Don't know for others, but the first time I encounter the word aromantic and do some researches, I find a lot of website saying things like "not feeling romantic attraction doesn't mean aros don't form couples", and then explaining the concept of QPR. Then, I saw people talking about wanting to form QPR, about squishes, but no one about not feeling it (it's not something I need to talk about in particular, and maybe that's the same for others so nobody did). That gives the idea that QPR is a norm.

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21 hours ago, Coyote said:

...I think you may have this backwards. Certainly Simon's (ridiculously amatonormative) terminology suggestions (that delineate between more distant friendlike qprs and closer romancelike qprs, wtf) relate back to some real emotional experiences that resonate with people -- otherwise there wouldn't be people thanking him and saying things in the notes like " Aaaa I really like this a lot. ... And this. Actually makes me feel a lot better. Because I felt left out of even the aro community bc I don’t rlly want a QPR at all."

It feels like we're saying the same things but in different ways lol. I meant that to me, it seems like people continuously create more specific words because they want all of their experience encapsulated in a few key terms, but this isn't helpful when the original "umbrella" term could just be understood as more diverse. 

2 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I Don't know for others, but the first time I encounter the word aromantic and do some researches, I find a lot of website saying things like "not feeling romantic attraction doesn't mean aros don't form couples", and then explaining the concept of QPR.

I think we may be on to something here - it does seem like any time I try to find aromantic resources, there's a lot of "but don't worry! we can still do this!" This may be an issue of people trying to make aromanticism more palatable/acceptable to non-aros? And I can definitely see how those voices would become the loudest, as people who aren't worried about "outsider" approval wouldn't be interested in making a loud fuss over this stuff. 

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5 hours ago, nonmerci said:

the first time I encounter the word aromantic and do some researches, I find a lot of website saying things like "not feeling romantic attraction doesn't mean aros don't form couples", and then explaining the concept of QPR.

 

hmm. I thought about this again recently while looking at the AUREA website -- the very first section of their FAQ page, the "General Information" section, has 2 questions on queerplatonic relationships (out of 9 in that section total, mostly about aromanticism in general). I don't know about y'all, but I feel like this foregrounds queerplatonic as a very central/general aromantic concept, moreso than other kinds of relationship preferences and types.

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On 6/22/2019 at 7:30 PM, Coyote said:

...I think you may have this backwards. Certainly Simon's (ridiculously amatonormative) terminology suggestions (that delineate between more distant friendlike qprs and closer romancelike qprs, wtf) relate back to some real emotional experiences that resonate with people -- otherwise there wouldn't be people thanking him and saying things in the notes like " Aaaa I really like this a lot. ... And this. Actually makes me feel a lot better. Because I felt left out of even the aro community bc I don’t rlly want a QPR at all."

 

I'm wondering if Poe's Law is applicable to this Galilean moons based idea. Since it is so ridiculous in several ways.

 

On 6/22/2019 at 7:30 PM, Coyote said:

My question is: why are people feeling left out in the first place? What's creating this impression of QPRs as some Master Narrative of How To Be Aro? Where is that coming from? Out of all the aromantics in this thread, how many of y'all even have a queerplatonic partner?

 

As I understand things, whilst an umbrella term, "queerplatonic" was never intended to apply to all non-romantic relationships or all relationships aromantic people could possibly be interested in.

 

23 hours ago, nonmerci said:

I Don't know for others, but the first time I encounter the word aromantic and do some researches, I find a lot of website saying things like "not feeling romantic attraction doesn't mean aros don't form couples", and then explaining the concept of QPR. Then, I saw people talking about wanting to form QPR, about squishes, but no one about not feeling it (it's not something I need to talk about in particular, and maybe that's the same for others so nobody did). That gives the idea that QPR is a norm.

 

There's 5 Myths About Aromanticism where myth 3 is about "primary partners".
Whilst this dosn't actually do the respectability politics of saying that "aros want normative relationships, just without the romance bit" it certainly could be interpreted that way.
So far as I know there's no evidence to support "Aromantic asexuals typically want that best friendship to be both nonromantic and nonsexual." I don;t think there is any "typical", even for aro aces. The same applying to the previous notion "Instead of falling in love with someone and making that romantic companion the primary partner with whom to share all of those things, aromantic people who desire partnership basically want a best friend or friends who they can have that kind of bond with." Whilst it, undoubtedly, describes some aros it certainly dosn't apply to all. It's even possible that this is applicable to a minority of aros.
There's Myths about aromantics which somewhat presents queerplatonic and romantic as a false dichotomy. 

 

20 hours ago, aro-fae said:

I think we may be on to something here - it does seem like any time I try to find aromantic resources, there's a lot of "but don't worry! we can still do this!" This may be an issue of people trying to make aromanticism more palatable/acceptable to non-aros? And I can definitely see how those voices would become the loudest, as people who aren't worried about "outsider" approval wouldn't be interested in making a loud fuss over this stuff. 

 

I can find this quite alienating. Since these sort of things are often too romance like for me to want to be associated with.

 

18 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

hmm. I thought about this again recently while looking at the AUREA website -- the very first section of their FAQ page, the "General Information" section, has 2 questions on queerplatonic relationships (out of 9 in that section total, mostly about aromanticism in general). I don't know about y'all, but I feel like this foregrounds queerplatonic as a very central/general aromantic concept, moreso than other kinds of relationship preferences and types.


There's also the question: "WHAT KINDS OF RELATIONSHIPS DO AROMANTICS HAVE?" which mentions "queerplationic relationships" in it's short and uncomprehensive list. I also feel that this somewhat conflates "partnered" and "committed". Which brings to mind some troublesome QPR definitions.
I think part of the problem is that the likes of "sexual friendships", "sensual friendships", "(physically) affectionate friendships", "non-platonic friendships", "cuddle buddies", etc don't get mentioned anywhere near as often as "queerplatonic relationships".

 

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5 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm wondering if Poe's Law is applicable to this Galilean moons based idea. Since it is so ridiculous in several ways.

 

Looks pretty sincere to me. If you want, I guess we could ask.

 

5 hours ago, Mark said:

There's also the question: "WHAT KINDS OF RELATIONSHIPS DO AROMANTICS HAVE?" which mentions "queerplationic relationships" in it's short and uncomprehensive list. I also feel that this somewhat conflates "partnered" and "committed". Which brings to mind some troublesome QPR definitions.
I think part of the problem is that the likes of "sexual friendships", "sensual friendships", "(physically) affectionate friendships", "non-platonic friendships", "cuddle buddies", etc don't get mentioned anywhere near as often as "queerplatonic relationships".

 

hmmm. Do you think the answer would be improved if those things were added onto the list?

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12 hours ago, Coyote said:

hmmm. Do you think the answer would be improved if those things were added onto the list?

Since this is an FAQ a possibly better option would be something to the effect of "There are many and varied possibilities". With a link to a longer article which clearly stated that the examples were not (intended to be) comprehensive or exhaustive then had a paragraph or so to describe these.

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