Aro website - help us fund it!!

[Coyote]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:56 PM, running.tally said:

The team just isn't quite sure how to respond, if we can be honest. We wanted to make clear that those of us on the core team are us because we work well together, are dedicated to inclusivity, and have time right now. What we're asking from everyone else isn't for your personal trust right now, but for your support and feedback. That's why we were confused by Mark's comment at the beginning. We welcome their feedback but know we can't fix them not trusting us with simple words. You will have to see the site to judge and this conversation will be circular until you see what we have created. Please don't assume we will misrepresent you. That's why we're here and listening, you know? What can we do better?

 

17 hours ago, bydontost said:

Again, we're not asking you to trust us at this point, but to be willing to suspend your distrust when you see the website and then judge if we're doing good or if we need to work on allo aro inclusiveness more.

 

I want to say just one thing about these responses.

 

I've been... thinking carefully about how to word this, since although I have my own set of concerns about this project and how it's currently proceeding, I don't really expect you to care to hear it. And so I'm trying to nix any commentary that I don't think has a chance of being listened to. But while you might not care about my trust or what I have to say as an individual, you should care about winning the trust of the community. That absolutely deserves to be step one for embarking on a project that very directly entails becoming representatives of the community.

 

I don't think "we're not asking you to trust us" is a response that makes sense here. You should be asking for and trying to earn trust. You should be doing that. You're setting out to do something very important in a way that may have far-reaching consequences -- and people deserve to know that a task like that is going to be handled appropriately.

 

Saying "we're not asking you to trust us, just asking you to suspend your distrust" doesn't even make sense at the sentence level, and it especially doesn't make sense in context. Asking for people to "suspend their distrust" is a request for trust. That's already happening, right there. And it's happening more generally, too. You are asking everyone to not worry, to "please don't assume we will misrepresent you," to "support" the project, to just wait and see. That's asking for trust.

 

And with some people, @Mark and others included, that trust hasn't been earned yet.

 

@running.tally indicated that the team isn't sure how to handle that issue. Like I said, I'm not expecting any of you to be interested in my advice, but surely there must be somebody you can ask.

 

[Mark]

8 hours ago, Coyote said:

I've been... thinking carefully about how to word this, since although I have my own set of concerns about this project and how it's currently proceeding, I don't really expect you to care to hear it. And so I'm trying to nix any commentary that I don't think has a chance of being listened to.

However if you don't voice those concerns then it's impossible for them to be listened to.
Though that's understandable if you expect them to be ignored, dismissed out of hand or described as "being negative".

[Solfege]

I think consulting asexualsurvivors.org, both the website design and team members, would be really helpful for everyone working on the arospec website. Or heck, contact the staff/volunteers at AVEN, it can't hurt. Don't tell me "But they're ace, not aro!" They have experience building the sort of website you're aiming for, and could give you a lot of helpful tips about how to do it yourself.

I also see a couple of potential problems: starting too big, and focusing on the superficial parts.

"AVEN for arospecs" is too big and vague to be a useful goal. You need to start with something smaller and concrete, e.g. "provide an educational resource for people curious about the aro spectrum." And you need to define how you're going to pursue that goal, like "publish essays explaining aromanticism and related concepts." If you don't clearly define your goals and methods, you'll waste time and money on things that don't actually make your website a solid resource.

Also, I think you're starting too big by trying to build a self-hosted website right off the bat. You've made a big promise but haven't provided any sample of what the content would look like, and are asking for money, which makes it hard for people to trust you. Instead, why not set up a subdomain at wordpress.com for free, begin publishing content, and migrate to wordpress.org self-hosting once the community has gotten to know to your work? You could even market the earlier site as a "beta version" and use it as a chance to invite feedback from the community and get diverse voices contributing.

Another way this project is "big" is that the aromantic spectrum is a huge, complex topic, and you will need to do a ton of research or add guest contributors' content in order to represent it accurately. Preferably both. It's good to have diverse identities represented on your staff, but having an identity doesn't automatically make you informed on its history, issues, intersections with other identities, or the best way to advocate for it. And you need to read actual books and articles, from inside and outside the community, not just blog and forum posts. Otherwise, you're likely to post factual errors or prejudiced content by mistake.

Speaking of which, I agree with Coyote's point about representing aro-spec people of color on your team. I'd also want people with mental disorders, the autism spectrum, and physical disabilities represented, either on the team itself or as major guest contributors. A lot of anti-aro prejudice is related to racism and ableism.

The other big issue is that you may focus on the superficial aspects of building a website, like its appearance, domain name, "aro 101" content, and logos, without paying enough attention to the logistics. Who will maintain and update links? Who will pay the bills? Who writes what content, and who proofreads it? Can team members edit each other's content? Who is in charge of soliciting input from the arospec community? How will you make the website accessible to people who are blind, dyslexic, or have other disabilities? If two team members disagree, how will you resolve it? If a factual error or prejudice sneaks into the website's content, who will fix it, and how? Will you copyright your content, and if so, how will you protect it? How will you protect the website's security, and its users/contributors' privacy?

[bananaslug]

Hi there @Solfege, I’m one of the website building team members! Thank you for your feedback and I hope I can address some of your concerns. 

 

20 hours ago, Solfege said:

I think consulting asexualsurvivors.org, both the website design and team members, would be really helpful for everyone working on the arospec website. Or heck, contact the staff/volunteers at AVEN, it can't hurt. Don't tell me "But they're ace, not aro!" They have experience building the sort of website you're aiming for, and could give you a lot of helpful tips about how to do it yourself.

 

Yes, we recognize that website design and building experience is a necessary part of this project and while we haven’t been working with AVEN or asexualsurvivors specifically, we have been consulting with community members that have web building experience.  

 

20 hours ago, Solfege said:

"AVEN for arospecs" is too big and vague to be a useful goal. You need to start with something smaller and concrete, e.g. "provide an educational resource for people curious about the aro spectrum." And you need to define how you're going to pursue that goal, like "publish essays explaining aromanticism and related concepts." If you don't clearly define your goals and methods, you'll waste time and money on things that don't actually make your website a solid resource.

 

This is understandable. We listed a broader goal as part of our fundraising, but our more specific goals include:

• Creating an extensive aromantic glossary with coinage and variation in definition listed  
• Providing accessible online and printable resources, as well as a listing of in-person aromantic groups
• Creating an aro community contact point for media outlets and researchers
• Maintaining a community feed with information on events, surveys, and news articles  

20 hours ago, Solfege said:

Instead, why not set up a subdomain at wordpress.com for free, begin publishing content, and migrate to wordpress.org self-hosting once the community has gotten to know to your work? You could even market the earlier site as a "beta version" and use it as a chance to invite feedback from the community and get diverse voices contributing.

 

Many of our team members already run or mod for aro specific blogs, so our goal with this website was to create something more formal than a subdomain. While we did consider using wordpress self-hosting, we also looked at a number of other hosting platforms and decided that squarespace provided the best website building tools for the lowest cost, so we are using it instead.  As for having a beta version for feedback, we are planning to accept feedback on the website once it’s live.

 

20 hours ago, Solfege said:

Another way this project is "big" is that the aromantic spectrum is a huge, complex topic, and you will need to do a ton of research or add guest contributors' content in order to represent it accurately. Preferably both. It's good to have diverse identities represented on your staff, but having an identity doesn't automatically make you informed on its history, issues, intersections with other identities, or the best way to advocate for it. And you need to read actual books and articles, from inside and outside the community, not just blog and forum posts. Otherwise, you're likely to post factual errors or prejudiced content by mistake.

 

I appreciate your concern on this point. We have been consulting with other community members on various topics and are working hard to make sure we have accurate information on aromantic history and sources for different terms and concepts. We would not be doing this project if we weren’t all willing to put in the work.  

 

20 hours ago, Solfege said:

Speaking of which, I agree with Coyote's point about representing aro-spec people of color on your team. I'd also want people with mental disorders, the autism spectrum, and physical disabilities represented, either on the team itself or as major guest contributors. A lot of anti-aro prejudice is related to racism and ableism.

 

While diversity was considered when picking team members, we were not trying to fill any diversity quotas. As a result, we do have some gaps in experience, but we will make a point of consulting with other community members around topics that require more diverse viewpoints.

 

As for things like web design, we are designing the website with an eye towards accessibility. I can say that personally as a dyslexic person with a background in graphic design, that’s definitely something at the forefront of my mind when making this website, and I know that my other team members have put a lot of consideration into that as well.

 

20 hours ago, Solfege said:

The other big issue is that you may focus on the superficial aspects of building a website, like its appearance, domain name, "aro 101" content, and logos, without paying enough attention to the logistics. Who will maintain and update links? Who will pay the bills? Who writes what content, and who proofreads it? Can team members edit each other's content? Who is in charge of soliciting input from the arospec community? How will you make the website accessible to people who are blind, dyslexic, or have other disabilities? If two team members disagree, how will you resolve it? If a factual error or prejudice sneaks into the website's content, who will fix it, and how? Will you copyright your content, and if so, how will you protect it? How will you protect the website's security, and its users/contributors' privacy?

 

I agree that logistics are important. Every member in our group has an official assigned role to make sure things get done and we will be posting those roles when the website goes live.

 

Thank you very much for your feedback. It does give us more things to consider when creating our website and we really appreciate that and will discuss it.

[Coyote]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:21 AM, Mark said:

However if you don't voice those concerns then it's impossible for them to be listened to.
Though that's understandable if you expect them to be ignored, dismissed out of hand or described as "being negative".

 

Quite so. Look at most of this thread already -- the few people who pipe up with something other than why they shouldn't have used paypal are getting a lot of "don't worry about it" and "no, we refuse to do that." If that's what others are getting, what hope do I have of hearing anything different?

 

It makes me wonder what they actually had in mind when they said they were interested in "feedback."

[Mark]

5 hours ago, Coyote said:

It makes me wonder what they actually had in mind when they said they were interested in "feedback."

Giving feedback can be hard.
Taking, and acting on, it can be harder.

[Holmbo]

On 5/1/2019 at 2:48 AM, Coyote said:

I've been... thinking carefully about how to word this, since although I have my own set of concerns about this project and how it's currently proceeding, I don't really expect you to care to hear it. And so I'm trying to nix any commentary that I don't think has a chance of being listened to. But while you might not care about my trust or what I have to say as an individual, you should care about winning the trust of the community. That absolutely deserves to be step one for embarking on a project that very directly entails becoming representatives of the community.

I don't think they need to ask for our permission to do this and how to do. We're not some chosen aro representatives. Just a bunch of aros coming together to discuss. Our opinion is not necessarily representative for aros as a whole. If people feel like they don't want to contribute money until they've seen some result or more assurance about how the project will represent them, that's reasonable. And if you want to give feedback and suggestions I'm sure that's useful. But the way some posts are phrased here it's like people feel they have some kinda right to put a veto to this initiative. Which I find silly. It's the internet! People will do what they feel like.

[Coyote]

25 minutes ago, Holmbo said:

We're not some chosen aro representatives.

 

Of course we're not. The (self-)chosen aro representatives in this situation are the people who have decided that they're going to represent the aromantic spectrum, i.e. create the outward-facing advocacy website for it.

 

I'm actually pretty confused how you've interpreted my post/why this comment is directed at me, because if you have a problem with people selecting themselves as aro representatives (a problem which I don't exactly share), then I'm not the one you should be looking at. Or, on the flipside, if you're perfectly okay with anyone self-nominating to be aro representatives, then I don't know why you've phrased your remarks like this. Or were you just highlighting that "we" are not members of that group, unlike the team here?

 

Those are some possibilities there off the top of my head, but I admit I'm at a loss for what you're specifically trying to get across to me, other than the nebulous sense that I said something you think I shouldn't have. I do tend to have a problem where I'm bad at grasping what other people are saying. Would you be interested in elaborating?

[nonmerci]

15 hours ago, Holmbo said:

But the way some posts are phrased here it's like people feel they have some kinda right to put a veto to this initiative. Which I find silly. It's the internet! People will do what they feel like.

It may be the internet, but they want to create a website to represent the aro community as a whole,  so it sounds natural to contribute. Now, I don't think we have the right to put a veto and some posts were not phrase well (sur la défensive, as we say in French, don't know how to say it in English sorry). It's not just a website,  it's suppose to become come the reference about aromanticism, so every aro is allowed to express how they feel about it. In particular when they ask for poney. 

 

Now, I am more on the "see before judging" side,  but I don't blame people for being worried. 

[Holmbo]

@Coyote
@nonmerci
I realized that my scepticism of others comments came from that I had a different view of how the role of the website was presented. I'm reading it as just giving the general idea of what aromanticism is and a guide to find other resources and people who would be interviewed.

But if you others read it as it's going to act as a representative for all aros, then I understand you concern. Obviously it is not a representative (and no amount of dialogue on a webforum will make it so). Maybe a way for  @bydontost

to relieve these concerns would be to explain how it will be made clear that the people running this website is a closed group and not chosen by anyone to be representatives.

[Coyote]

8 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I realized that my scepticism of others comments came from that I had a different view of how the role of the website was presented. I'm reading it as just giving the general idea of what aromanticism is and a guide to find other resources and people who would be interviewed.

But if you others read it as it's going to act as a representative for all aros, then I understand you concern. Obviously it is not a representative (and no amount of dialogue on a webforum will make it so). Maybe a way for  @bydontost

to relieve these concerns would be to explain how it will be made clear that the people running this website is a closed group and not chosen by anyone to be representatives.

 

It sounds like we are still not on the same page, because I disagree with some of what you've said here -- or rather, I just have a different understanding of how to parse it all.

 

On the one hand, I think it's fine and would make sense for the team to include something on the site about how the team came about -- some kind of "origin story," so to speak, on the website, whose idea it was, and how the other people were picked, plus a note that these people were not voted into the position or whatever. That would be fine. It's not something I'm pushing for, but it'd be fine.

 

On the other hand, I would draw a distinction between them doing that and them saying "we are not representatives" or "this website is not representing the aromantic community." Because it is. And I'm not even saying that's a bad thing! I'm just saying, "representing others," necessarily, is something that this initiative entails, by definition. I cannot stress enough that representing others is not (itself) something that I object to. I just don't know why you're talking like that can be avoided in a project like this. It's actually little different than, say, the grad representative from my department, who represents the graduate students at faculty meetings -- by showing up to those meetings and acting as a liaison between us and them. In that role, they are representing others. Representing others is not a bad thing to be avoided. It's the point of the whole website.

 

So it's because they are aiming to represent others in this particular way that I have questions I think it's not unreasonable to want answers to. At the moment I have one question in particular that I think is pretty good & that I would appreciate some support in getting the team to answer.

[bydontost]

21 hours ago, Holmbo said:

I realized that my scepticism of others comments came from that I had a different view of how the role of the website was presented. I'm reading it as just giving the general idea of what aromanticism is and a guide to find other resources and people who would be interviewed.

 

As @bananaslug said, our goals right now are as follows:

On 5/4/2019 at 12:33 AM, bananaslug said:

• Creating an extensive aromantic glossary with coinage and variation in definition listed  
• Providing accessible online and printable resources, as well as a listing of in-person aromantic groups
• Creating an aro community contact point for media outlets and researchers
• Maintaining a community feed with information on events, surveys, and news articles

 

As we mentioned before, we want this website to act like an official resource for education about aromanticism and a way to connect various aromantic discussions happening in different spaces. This first aim and trying to get contact from media through the website especially means that we'd be treated as representatives, as a way for people who aren't aromantic to get insight into aromantic perspectives from an inside source. That said, we will invite others to contribute or volunteer and represent the organization as a whole, should they wish to. We don't want to be the only representatives (i.e., ignoring others or pretending we know everything) but our team is made up of people who are ready to devote the time and energy to do their research and act as spokespeople for official purposes.

 

21 hours ago, Holmbo said:

Maybe a way for  @bydontost

to relieve these concerns would be to explain how it will be made clear that the people running this website is a closed group and not chosen by anyone to be representatives.

 

We'll have an "About" page, which will introduce everyone on the team, so it'll be clear who is actually working on the website, in what capacity and what specific input they have (for example in terms of non-sam identities). We can include the basis on which people were chosen for the team. We won't include anything about not being the chosen representatives, because this would just undermine the website in the eyes of people coming from the outside of aro communities. We'd rather work to really represent aromantics as well as possible.

 

12 hours ago, Coyote said:

I'm just saying, "representing others," necessarily, is something that this initiative entails, by definition.

 

It's true, one of main aims of this initiative's is to represent aromantics, because we think we (aros) need that.

 

12 hours ago, Coyote said:

I have questions I think it's not unreasonable to want answers to. At the moment I have one question in particular that I think is pretty good & that I would appreciate some support in getting the team to answer.

 

We are monitoring this thread - if you have a question, feel free to ask it and we'll answer. What's the question?

[Coyote]

9 hours ago, bydontost said:

We are monitoring this thread - if you have a question, feel free to ask it and we'll answer. What's the question?

 

Hello Tost. Thank you. My question pertains to something that's already been said about the team's plans:

 

On 4/27/2019 at 1:35 AM, HotRamen said:

When we do publish our website there will be a way to contact us if you think something should be added changed or updated. So please give us comments when the site is live.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 6:33 PM, bananaslug said:

 As for having a beta version for feedback, we are planning to accept feedback on the website once it’s live.

 

What I understand this to mean is that the team is intending to not invite any outside beta readers/not release any part of the web copy before publishing the site.

 

Why?

[Mark]

On 5/3/2019 at 11:33 PM, bananaslug said:

 As for having a beta version for feedback, we are planning to accept feedback on the website once it’s live.

I missed this earlier.
The problem is at this point there is no technical approach you can take to ensure errors won't be propagated and replicated.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 11:33 PM, bananaslug said:

I appreciate your concern on this point. We have been consulting with other community members on various topics and are working hard to make sure we have accurate information on aromantic history and sources for different terms and concepts. We would not be doing this project if we weren’t all willing to put in the work.

Two obvious ways to improve accuracy would be having a beta version of the website specifically for feedback, which will be deleted once the main site goes live and posting the information to a forum such as arocalypse.

 

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

What I understand this to mean is that the team is intending to not invite any outside beta readers/not release any part of the web copy before publishing the site.

 

Why?

Seconded!

[bydontost]

On 5/10/2019 at 7:44 PM, Coyote said:

What I understand this to mean is that the team is intending to not invite any outside beta readers/not release any part of the web copy before publishing the site.

 

Why?

 

On 5/10/2019 at 8:58 PM, Mark said:

Seconded!

 

It didn't occur to us initially to invite beta readers, because we didn't expect the site launch to immediately catch the attention of everyone outside the aro community, just the insiders so to speak, so we were going to accept suggestions and feedback then. For the past few days we've been thinking about changing that though, because it's true that any errors that could find their way in could decrease credibility if the website was presented as a final version from the start. So we were thinking of starting with a short beta period for the whole website, possibly on a different domain, a link to which would be shared on the forums and with selected people from discord and tumblr. We'd ask for feedback (tangible recommendations of what could be improved) in the e-mail form so that it's easier to keep track of and after addressing that feedback and making the changes, we'd launch the site in a final-ish version (as we'd be still open to feedback then).

[NullVector]

On 5/10/2019 at 9:39 AM, bydontost said:

We won't include anything about not being the chosen representatives, because this would just undermine the website in the eyes of people coming from the outside of aro communities. 

 

Would it though? I mean, you aren't 'chosen representatives' (there hasn't been an election or something) so it may make sense to establish that context explicitly? I'm fine with you representing yourselves and your own opinions and experiences online - and your understanding of these as aros - but why seek to imply that non-aro people not implicitly universalising your understanding to all aros would 'undermine the website'? This I don't understand.

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, bydontost said:

So we were thinking of starting with a short beta period for the whole website, possibly on a different domain, a link to which would be shared on the forums and with selected people from discord and tumblr. We'd ask for feedback (tangible recommendations of what could be improved) in the e-mail form so that it's easier to keep track of and after addressing that feedback and making the changes, we'd launch the site in a final-ish version (as we'd be still open to feedback then).

 

I'm happy to hear this.

 

2 hours ago, NullVector said:

Would it though? I mean, you aren't 'chosen representatives' (there hasn't been an election or something) so it may make sense to establish that context explicitly? I'm fine with you representing yourselves and your own opinions and experiences online - and your understanding of these as aros - but why seek to imply that non-aro people not implicitly universalising your understanding to all aros would 'undermine the website'? This I don't understand.

 

It makes sense to me, even though it's arguable. Although I'm not interested in pushing for them to go one way or the other on how to handle this (and am just sharing some thoughts here), the way I see it is like this: if they were to do a lot of disclaimers and personalization of the site, framing everything in terms of "this is just our own way of seeing it, from the POV of the team here," then there wouldn't be a lot to differentiate it from a lot of existing aro blogs and glossaries that are already out there. It'd just be basically the same thing, except with a different domain. My understanding of the goal here is to create something that looks more "official," and -- for better or for worse -- to a lot of anglophones, more "official" presentation is more impersonal, absolute, unified presentation. You could argue that that association/perception is bad, of course, but I can understand not wanting to fight two battles at once, if that makes sense.

[Mark]

On 5/11/2019 at 11:15 PM, bydontost said:

It didn't occur to us initially to invite beta readers, because we didn't expect the site launch to immediately catch the attention of everyone outside the aro community, just the insiders so to speak, so we were going to accept suggestions and feedback then.

My thinking is that a site on a new dedicated domain is more likely to attract the attention of search engines (and similar) than one on an obscure sub domain.
 

On 5/11/2019 at 11:15 PM, bydontost said:

For the past few days we've been thinking about changing that though, because it's true that any errors that could find their way in could decrease credibility if the website was presented as a final version from the start.

Given the size of the project errors are virtually certain. 

 

On 5/11/2019 at 11:15 PM, bydontost said:

So we were thinking of starting with a short beta period for the whole website, possibly on a different domain, a link to which would be shared on the forums

Best not make that beta period too short, especially if it would overlap with a holiday period. Fixing problems can also take time.
Also definitely NOT on the same domain, even have no domain and purely an IP address.

 

On 5/11/2019 at 11:15 PM, bydontost said:

a link to which would be shared on the forums and with selected people from discord and tumblr.

I think it's important to avoid being too selective, since this can lead to confirmation bias.

 

[Holmbo]

On 5/10/2019 at 10:39 AM, bydontost said:

As we mentioned before, we want this website to act like an official resource for education about aromanticism and a way to connect various aromantic discussions happening in different spaces. This first aim and trying to get contact from media through the website especially means that we'd be treated as representatives, as a way for people who aren't aromantic to get insight into aromantic perspectives from an inside source. That said, we will invite others to contribute or volunteer and represent the organization as a whole, should they wish to. We don't want to be the only representatives (i.e., ignoring others or pretending we know everything) but our team is made up of people who are ready to devote the time and energy to do their research and act as spokespeople for official purposes.

Maybe It's cause English is not my first language but I'm actually unsure what "official resource" means. The term official means: someone who holds an office in an organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority. To call your initiative "official" in that sense would be factually incorrect.  I understand that your choice of words reflect the goal of your project: To be the go-to resource for aromanticism. The thing is, you can't make yourself the go-to resource just by stating that you are. The only way to do that is to build a aromanticism resource that is so good that people see it as the best one. I don't think you need to worry about being OFFICIAL. That is not possible anyway. As a comparison: look at this forum Arocalypse. It's not the official forum for aromantics. But it is the best (that I know of). So IMO aim to be the best, and people looking for aro content and knowledge will come to you.

[Coyote]

On 5/13/2019 at 5:21 AM, Holmbo said:

Maybe It's cause English is not my first language but I'm actually unsure what "official resource" means. The term official means: someone who holds an office in an organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority. To call your initiative "official" in that sense would be factually incorrect.

 

If I may hazard a guess... I figure they mean "official" colloquially, in the sense of "credible, serious, and polished-looking, with an air of authority."